5 ms·

I don't know what it is with you US Americans and "cheating"... but it seems to be a very touchy subject in your culture, almost like violating someone's honors

by kahawe 15y ago

I don't know what it is with you US Americans and "cheating"... but it seems to be a very touchy subject in your culture, almost like violating someone's honors. I never understood that.

grannyg00se 15y ago
When you cheat you violate an agreement everyone has made either explicitly or implicitly. When you violate an code of behaviour to your benefit, others may suffer. It shouldn't be very difficult to understand that causing someone else to suffer for your own gain is "touchy" at best.
kentbuckle 15y ago
Just out of curiosity, where are you from and how is cheating regarded there?
- kahawe 15y ago
  I am Austrian and studied in Austria. Cheating is not really considered special or extra-ordinary in any way here. Pupils in school would try it, also students later on might try to... generally it is the duty of the teacher or professor to keep students from cheating here and 95% of the time they are very successful at it. The remaining 5% are considered fair game by the students. Most tests (as in over 90%) do not allow you to use books or any other material; sometimes students would try to hide notes or get an answer from a fellow student but ultimately with the teacher watching and the situation in the class room being really quiet, in most cases there is hardly anything you can really do or find out anyway but maybe you can get one or two hints tops. Also, most exams (at least where I studied) did not have multiple choice tests instead you would have to write a proper answer and apply knowledge. So at best someone could whisper a clue or hint you in the right direction In case you got caught talking/cheating you might get one or two warnings and then your test is taken away from you and maybe also from the person you were talking to, depending on course and professor. The difference for me is: amongst students, it is not a "crime" here.. you are trying to help your fellow colleagues mostly "against" the teacher and while still covering your own ass. It would be considered rather offending NOT to help on purpose when you have the chance to. Another difference might be: I did not have to pay upwards of 100k to get a decent education. So maybe studying is more a "commodity" here in Euroland.
  - Daniel_Newby 15y ago
    The American perspective tends to be that you are the system (decentralism), not that it is you versus the system (authoritarianism). Unfortunately America has also become infested by the idea that punishment creates virtuous people, especially among those with an authoritarian bent. Attempts to outlaw decentralism fail, so they pack all the authoritarianism into those cases where centralized intervention is needed. Hence the rise of zero-tolerance policies for everything. That's how we reach the point where a university opens up a can of ass-whip for a essay that forgot a pair of quotation marks (you can't swing a dead cat in the English department without hitting a sanctimonious liberal).
atarian 15y ago
As a student I pay thousands of dollars to earn a degree from a respectable institution. When students cheat and get away with it like in the OP's article, it dilutes the value of my degree.
- endgame 15y ago
  Not only that, it can also wreck the classes. If the response to rampant cheating is "oh, the course was too hard", then the standards to which students are held will fall.
qntm 15y ago
Because the cheater gets out the other end of the degree course with a degree they didn't earn. And then they start competing for the same jobs as me.
- ankimal 15y ago
  Its funny how almost all of this hard work put into cheating, copying, changing, editing etc. leads to one line on your resume, the GPA. A good GPA gets your resume short-listed at the very least but someone who never earned the GPA is extremely easy to catch in an interview, especially for CS majors. A little digging into that project you got an 'A' for and it all comes tumbling down like a house of cards. All it achieves in the end, is a waste of the interviewer or recruiter's time.
pnathan 15y ago
It is totally a question of honor. It is utterly dishonorable to cheat, and egregiously so at the levels described in the aforementioned blog. The goal of the scholastic experience is so that you, the student, learns something. If the school turns out people who didn't learn, they are producing worthlessness. It is a lie to say that you have a degree, when you really have a collection of credits that you cheated through. The degree is worthless and should be sent back.
- kahawe 15y ago
  You are exaggerating by 200% and leading it ad absurdum. "Cheating" for me means getting one or two hints at an exam and with the exam situation being what it is, those hints typically only really help to jog your memory if you did study. It does not mean downright plagiarizing your thesis and 90% of your studies. But US Americans seem to be offended even at the idea of getting or sharing a single hint during an exam. Here in Europe you could easily loose "street cred" and be forever labeled as the worst kind of "nerd" if you did NOT at least try to help a fellow student on purpose. Again, I am not talking about writing 100% of homework for you but sharing a hint or a small piece of help during an exam. Funnily, we had a few very, very high profile cases of plagiarized doctorates amongst politicians here in Germany. Their degree was taken away from them of course.
  - nknight 15y ago
    "Cheating" may mean that for you, but it's not what it means for most people, and certainly not for "Americans" in general. Panos is pretty clear in his post about what was going on. This wasn't "hints" or anything close. 20-95% of the content in some of these papers was being copied straight off the web without even a citation. It's plagiarism, just like the high-profile cases you recently had. How is that not cheating?
  - pnathan 15y ago
    No. I assure you, what you describe is considered cheating, but the cheating that usually takes place is far more comprehensive.
OstiaAntica 15y ago
It is violating honor, the honor of the institution and everyone who is sacrificing their time and treasure to advance your education. The rules governing cheating are even sometimes called "Honor Codes". Finally, from a Christian perspective, putting your name on work you did not complete is a form of lying and is immoral.
- endgame 15y ago
  I really hope that the downvotes aren't from people who dislike this poster's Christian perspective. I suspect that the HN majority is atheist, but it's still no excuse.
  - RodgerTheGreat 15y ago
    Disregarding any particular poster's religious affiliations, understanding "Christian" values can shed a great deal of light on the foundations of American culture. I think it's an excellent point at any rate.
  - MartinCron 15y ago
    I suspect that the HN majority is atheist Really? I get a sense that there's some outspoken atheists here, but I don't see it as a majority. I guess that would make an interesting poll.
kahawe 15y ago
Why is this and my replies (with detailed descriptions) being downvoted? It was an honest question about cultural differences.

by kahawe 15y ago

I don't know what it is with you US Americans and "cheating"... but it seems to be a very touchy subject in your culture, almost like violating someone's honors. I never understood that.

grannyg00se 15y ago

When you cheat you violate an agreement everyone has made either explicitly or implicitly. When you violate an code of behaviour to your benefit, others may suffer. It shouldn't be very difficult to understand that causing someone else to suffer for your own gain is "touchy" at best.

kentbuckle 15y ago

Just out of curiosity, where are you from and how is cheating regarded there?

kahawe 15y ago
I am Austrian and studied in Austria. Cheating is not really considered special or extra-ordinary in any way here. Pupils in school would try it, also students later on might try to... generally it is the duty of the teacher or professor to keep students from cheating here and 95% of the time they are very successful at it. The remaining 5% are considered fair game by the students. Most tests (as in over 90%) do not allow you to use books or any other material; sometimes students would try to hide notes or get an answer from a fellow student but ultimately with the teacher watching and the situation in the class room being really quiet, in most cases there is hardly anything you can really do or find out anyway but maybe you can get one or two hints tops. Also, most exams (at least where I studied) did not have multiple choice tests instead you would have to write a proper answer and apply knowledge. So at best someone could whisper a clue or hint you in the right direction In case you got caught talking/cheating you might get one or two warnings and then your test is taken away from you and maybe also from the person you were talking to, depending on course and professor. The difference for me is: amongst students, it is not a "crime" here.. you are trying to help your fellow colleagues mostly "against" the teacher and while still covering your own ass. It would be considered rather offending NOT to help on purpose when you have the chance to. Another difference might be: I did not have to pay upwards of 100k to get a decent education. So maybe studying is more a "commodity" here in Euroland.
- Daniel_Newby 15y ago
  The American perspective tends to be that you are the system (decentralism), not that it is you versus the system (authoritarianism). Unfortunately America has also become infested by the idea that punishment creates virtuous people, especially among those with an authoritarian bent. Attempts to outlaw decentralism fail, so they pack all the authoritarianism into those cases where centralized intervention is needed. Hence the rise of zero-tolerance policies for everything. That's how we reach the point where a university opens up a can of ass-whip for a essay that forgot a pair of quotation marks (you can't swing a dead cat in the English department without hitting a sanctimonious liberal).

atarian 15y ago

As a student I pay thousands of dollars to earn a degree from a respectable institution. When students cheat and get away with it like in the OP's article, it dilutes the value of my degree.

endgame 15y ago
Not only that, it can also wreck the classes. If the response to rampant cheating is "oh, the course was too hard", then the standards to which students are held will fall.

qntm 15y ago

Because the cheater gets out the other end of the degree course with a degree they didn't earn. And then they start competing for the same jobs as me.

ankimal 15y ago
Its funny how almost all of this hard work put into cheating, copying, changing, editing etc. leads to one line on your resume, the GPA. A good GPA gets your resume short-listed at the very least but someone who never earned the GPA is extremely easy to catch in an interview, especially for CS majors. A little digging into that project you got an 'A' for and it all comes tumbling down like a house of cards. All it achieves in the end, is a waste of the interviewer or recruiter's time.

pnathan 15y ago

It is totally a question of honor. It is utterly dishonorable to cheat, and egregiously so at the levels described in the aforementioned blog. The goal of the scholastic experience is so that you, the student, learns something. If the school turns out people who didn't learn, they are producing worthlessness. It is a lie to say that you have a degree, when you really have a collection of credits that you cheated through. The degree is worthless and should be sent back.

kahawe 15y ago
You are exaggerating by 200% and leading it ad absurdum. "Cheating" for me means getting one or two hints at an exam and with the exam situation being what it is, those hints typically only really help to jog your memory if you did study. It does not mean downright plagiarizing your thesis and 90% of your studies. But US Americans seem to be offended even at the idea of getting or sharing a single hint during an exam. Here in Europe you could easily loose "street cred" and be forever labeled as the worst kind of "nerd" if you did NOT at least try to help a fellow student on purpose. Again, I am not talking about writing 100% of homework for you but sharing a hint or a small piece of help during an exam. Funnily, we had a few very, very high profile cases of plagiarized doctorates amongst politicians here in Germany. Their degree was taken away from them of course.
- nknight 15y ago
  "Cheating" may mean that for you, but it's not what it means for most people, and certainly not for "Americans" in general. Panos is pretty clear in his post about what was going on. This wasn't "hints" or anything close. 20-95% of the content in some of these papers was being copied straight off the web without even a citation. It's plagiarism, just like the high-profile cases you recently had. How is that not cheating?
- pnathan 15y ago
  No. I assure you, what you describe is considered cheating, but the cheating that usually takes place is far more comprehensive.

OstiaAntica 15y ago

It is violating honor, the honor of the institution and everyone who is sacrificing their time and treasure to advance your education. The rules governing cheating are even sometimes called "Honor Codes". Finally, from a Christian perspective, putting your name on work you did not complete is a form of lying and is immoral.

endgame 15y ago
I really hope that the downvotes aren't from people who dislike this poster's Christian perspective. I suspect that the HN majority is atheist, but it's still no excuse.
- RodgerTheGreat 15y ago
  Disregarding any particular poster's religious affiliations, understanding "Christian" values can shed a great deal of light on the foundations of American culture. I think it's an excellent point at any rate.
- MartinCron 15y ago
  I suspect that the HN majority is atheist Really? I get a sense that there's some outspoken atheists here, but I don't see it as a majority. I guess that would make an interesting poll.

kahawe 15y ago

Why is this and my replies (with detailed descriptions) being downvoted? It was an honest question about cultural differences.