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BTW: I thought I'd seen your name before. You are also the one who claimed the other day that: > Female programmers have had to fight against a constant discou

BTW: I thought I'd seen your name before. You are also the one who claimed the other day that: > Female programmers have had to fight against a constant discouragement from pretty much everyone in their lives, while male programmers have had nothing but encouragement. Based on that and this one it seems fair to say that you have a tendency to make up facts as you need them. Please stop doing that. It might be a nice party trick when one is young but it soon get really annoying for anyone who argues in good faith.

marcus_holmes 5y ago
I am arguing in good faith, based on facts that I know: I ran a one-day workshop to teach women to code (now https://shecodes.com.au/ https://shecodes.com.au/) based on discussions with female coders about their experiences getting into the industry. These workshops are always oversubscribed, and always there are women there saying "if only I'd received this kind of encouragement when I was younger". I've seen multiple female colleagues harassed by male management until they leave the industry. Again and again, I've heard female colleagues talk about the discouragement and difficulties they've experienced in the IT industry. I've never heard a male colleague express this. From everyone I've talked to it seems to be a universal experience from men that they have been encouraged to learn to code and join the industry. These are facts. They may be anecdotal, but that doesn't stop them from being facts. I am not making them up. The US has a problem with gun violence. This is a fact [0]. I think it stems from the high rate of gun ownership in the US. That is an opinion, though it is supported by correlation [1]. I think it's fairly clear that I'm expressing an opinion in my original comment, but I'll take your comment as a caution that I need to be more clear whether I'm expressing an opinion or a fact. [0] https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/gun-deaths-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/gun-death... [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3828709/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3828709/
Tepix 5y ago
He's right on both accounts though.
- eitland 5y ago
  Did we read the same text? I for one as a very male programmer can at least say that the idea that > while male programmers have had nothing but encouragement. is patently false.
  - marcus_holmes 5y ago
    Can you give an example of a man who was discouraged from learning to code and joining the IT industry? I have yet to find an example of this.
    - blueflow 5y ago
      Me - my mom was the kind of semi-christian person who considered Computers some sort of evil. I had to do everything against her will and partially in secrecy, and in the end she only accepted it because i ended up bringing money home. Your "women are weak and need help" attitude sucks.
      - marcus_holmes 5y ago
        Thanks for the example. The first I've ever met. It's an interesting situation, and I sympathise with your struggle going through that. However it doesn't really affect the subject because you weren't being discouraged because of your gender, which is the thing I was talking about. Many women go through what you went through, but because "coding isn't for women" rather than "computers are evil". > Your "women are weak and need help" attitude sucks. Well, the women I helped didn't think my attitude sucks. I even got an honourable mention on a TedX talk on the subject [0] (by a woman). So I think I'll continue listening to them and not you. Maybe you should re-examine your attitudes on the subject? [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6UODmQXzIs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6UODmQXzIs
        blueflow 5y ago
        > The first I've ever met Welcome to the working class! Where things are routinely shit, if "external discouragement" stops you from things, you will never get far in life. It not about sex or gender, its resilience what matters. And resilience is what people from privileged backgrounds rarely have, because they had it good enough to never have to learn it. Next time i see a damsel in distress i'll come back to you. Yes, im just making fun of you.

marcus_holmes 5y ago

I am arguing in good faith, based on facts that I know: I ran a one-day workshop to teach women to code (now https://shecodes.com.au/ https://shecodes.com.au/) based on discussions with female coders about their experiences getting into the industry. These workshops are always oversubscribed, and always there are women there saying "if only I'd received this kind of encouragement when I was younger". I've seen multiple female colleagues harassed by male management until they leave the industry. Again and again, I've heard female colleagues talk about the discouragement and difficulties they've experienced in the IT industry. I've never heard a male colleague express this. From everyone I've talked to it seems to be a universal experience from men that they have been encouraged to learn to code and join the industry. These are facts. They may be anecdotal, but that doesn't stop them from being facts. I am not making them up. The US has a problem with gun violence. This is a fact [0]. I think it stems from the high rate of gun ownership in the US. That is an opinion, though it is supported by correlation [1]. I think it's fairly clear that I'm expressing an opinion in my original comment, but I'll take your comment as a caution that I need to be more clear whether I'm expressing an opinion or a fact. [0] https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/gun-deaths-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/gun-death... [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3828709/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3828709/

Tepix 5y ago

He's right on both accounts though.

eitland 5y ago
Did we read the same text? I for one as a very male programmer can at least say that the idea that > while male programmers have had nothing but encouragement. is patently false.
- marcus_holmes 5y ago
  Can you give an example of a man who was discouraged from learning to code and joining the IT industry? I have yet to find an example of this.
  - blueflow 5y ago
    Me - my mom was the kind of semi-christian person who considered Computers some sort of evil. I had to do everything against her will and partially in secrecy, and in the end she only accepted it because i ended up bringing money home. Your "women are weak and need help" attitude sucks.
    - marcus_holmes 5y ago
      Thanks for the example. The first I've ever met. It's an interesting situation, and I sympathise with your struggle going through that. However it doesn't really affect the subject because you weren't being discouraged because of your gender, which is the thing I was talking about. Many women go through what you went through, but because "coding isn't for women" rather than "computers are evil". > Your "women are weak and need help" attitude sucks. Well, the women I helped didn't think my attitude sucks. I even got an honourable mention on a TedX talk on the subject [0] (by a woman). So I think I'll continue listening to them and not you. Maybe you should re-examine your attitudes on the subject? [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6UODmQXzIs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6UODmQXzIs
      - blueflow 5y ago
        > The first I've ever met Welcome to the working class! Where things are routinely shit, if "external discouragement" stops you from things, you will never get far in life. It not about sex or gender, its resilience what matters. And resilience is what people from privileged backgrounds rarely have, because they had it good enough to never have to learn it. Next time i see a damsel in distress i'll come back to you. Yes, im just making fun of you.