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It's not so much the internet as it is websites with voting and “like” systems. I notice it too on H.N.; it would not surprise me if 75% of votes on posts come

It's not so much the internet as it is websites with voting and “like” systems. I notice it too on H.N.; it would not surprise me if 75% of votes on posts come from 25% of users, if not more extreme. The people that vote on posts, not the people that comment, dictate what becomes visible, and it stands to reason that the former group is considerably less prudent and more prone to impulsive angry decisions than the latter. I've certainly noticed quite a bit on H.N., and even more so on Reddit that upvoted threads with sensationalist headlines are more heavily scrutinized in the comments for being misleading.

all2 5y ago
dang, Could we try "influence" boosting posts? Some kind of combination of "this person has X karma, commented on Y post, that yields the same result as upvoting in Z fashion" and normal upvotes? I don't know that this would solve the above described problem (and it will likely introduce other issues in the social fabric of HN), but it might be interesting to see the outcome...
- batch12 5y ago
  You could use the API to get historical posts and comments and run the numbers to get a taste of the outcome instead of testing on the live site.
- Blikkentrekker 5y ago
  I personally think the best way to rank posts is by simple activity myself, the system that DeviantArt uses, a simple recursive algorithm where the top post is the one that had a reply in one of it's children of the same level twice, but the tree is maintained. So say we have a these posts: A - B - C - - D E - F - - G - H Say that a new post, I, be made, which is a reply to H, then after that the tree would appear so: E - H - - I - F - - G A - B - C - - D By replying to H, I has now pushed H to be the top child of E, and also pushed E above A. This results into posts whose children have the most activity statistically are more visible, but if an inactive post be replied to, it will briefly be at the top and more visible, and any new post will also start at the top. Essentially, it is the treed evolution of the traditional linear thread system where threads are simply ranked based on most recent replied. DeviantArt uses this system and it's boards do not feel as though they be an echo-chamber and are full of people challenging each other's views and trees seem to be more balanced out rather than al replies being under the top post, which became the most visible due to upvotes such that others are ignored completely.
  - all2 5y ago
    I like the simplicity of it, but it could very easily be a victim of "forum sliding", where new posts are made with the purpose of moving undesirable topics out of sight.
    - Blikkentrekker 5y ago
      It's possible, but they would be spam and dealt with, and I do not see this problem on DeviantArt at all.
  - jimmygrapes 5y ago
    This seems identical to futaba/chan-style "bumping" which is imo easily gamed without having some other variable (logarithmic time fall off or something) AND (has significant spam protection OR has significant moderation/user reporting system). It is usually paired with a post limit as well, so that eventually old conversations fall off and disappear and/or get archived.
    - Blikkentrekker 5y ago
      Most traditional forums never had a timer system, and it did not seem to be needed. It indeed resulted in some threads being alive for months, but that was only because the discussion in it was healthy and interesting, and new input on the same subject continued to be had. They typically also do not have an archival system and often præfer that one revive an old thread that was dead for years rather than make a new one on the same subject, as in doing so all the old content becomes visible again for a fresh perspective. I agree that often it is quite interesting to receive new replies with new input to a thread that died off three years ago. I am not seeing these fora being gamed at all: in order to game them, one must provide content interesting enough to draw replies. — Visibility is purely a function of the number of replies, not of agreement.
- tomatotomato37 5y ago
  That feels like it would just turn into some type of toxic popularity contest where prominent posters that get a lot of engagement get boosted to the top, irregardless of the actual quality of said engagement. In addition it may also create some type of gatekeeping effect, though in my opinion that's not exactly a bad thing for niche communities such as this.
tester756 5y ago
upvotes/downvotes/likes are in my opinion net negative It's hard to convince world to move from this thing, but it promotes some kind of addiction, an ability to manipulate web 2.0 is kinda mistake when it comes to news and stuff.
- Blikkentrekker 5y ago
  It exists on many websites because that userbase wants it. Virtually all websites that have them such as Reddit, Facebook, and Youtube are known to promote isolated echo chambers and extremist views, but that's what they attract so it's not going away or they would loose their userbase. I do not believe that Reddit was started with this mentality, but at it's start wanted to promote decentralized leadership, but by now they must have realized this and their current policy seems to be to capitalize on their current userbase, which is known to favor and enjoy echo chambers. — H.N. is to a certain extent spared from this because it only has one page rather than attempting to divide itself into semi-isolated communities, but it's still quite obvious in distinct threads that one can be upvoted for saying the same thing one can be downvoted for in another thread, and that in general threads are filled with agreement. Ironically, in this very comment train, people are mostly agreeing with each other that the voting system creates too much of an echo-chamber.
  - DoreenMichele 5y ago
    I don't agree with this take. I run multiple small Reddits, though several are restricted which means no one but me can post new content (though other people can comment). There are a lot of small Reddits that are off the beaten path. It's a diverse ecosystem and you aren't required to participate in the larger subs which may well be "an echo chamber" because they were started for a specific interest and you either are into that or not and if not, it's not really the place for you. I don't think you need to be fighty and actively oppose every single "popular" opinion to provide a different take. I say a lot of unpopular things on HN and, so far, they haven't banned me. I'm older than I used to be. I'm more inclined to pick my battles and I have a different understanding of how to introduce other ideas. If you do it right, you can get taken seriously sometimes though it's a slow process and not for the innately impatient or the folks looking to grab karma or the folks wanting to make a splash.
blooalien 5y ago
> "I've certainly noticed quite a bit on H.N., and even more so on Reddit that upvoted threads with sensationalist headlines are more heavily scrutinized in the comments for being misleading." Exactly why I read the comments before I click the link to the article, and why I'll read the article (assuming the comments give me a valid reason to) before commenting about it. ;)

all2 5y ago

dang, Could we try "influence" boosting posts? Some kind of combination of "this person has X karma, commented on Y post, that yields the same result as upvoting in Z fashion" and normal upvotes? I don't know that this would solve the above described problem (and it will likely introduce other issues in the social fabric of HN), but it might be interesting to see the outcome...

batch12 5y ago
You could use the API to get historical posts and comments and run the numbers to get a taste of the outcome instead of testing on the live site.
Blikkentrekker 5y ago
I personally think the best way to rank posts is by simple activity myself, the system that DeviantArt uses, a simple recursive algorithm where the top post is the one that had a reply in one of it's children of the same level twice, but the tree is maintained. So say we have a these posts: A - B - C - - D E - F - - G - H Say that a new post, I, be made, which is a reply to H, then after that the tree would appear so: E - H - - I - F - - G A - B - C - - D By replying to H, I has now pushed H to be the top child of E, and also pushed E above A. This results into posts whose children have the most activity statistically are more visible, but if an inactive post be replied to, it will briefly be at the top and more visible, and any new post will also start at the top. Essentially, it is the treed evolution of the traditional linear thread system where threads are simply ranked based on most recent replied. DeviantArt uses this system and it's boards do not feel as though they be an echo-chamber and are full of people challenging each other's views and trees seem to be more balanced out rather than al replies being under the top post, which became the most visible due to upvotes such that others are ignored completely.
- all2 5y ago
  I like the simplicity of it, but it could very easily be a victim of "forum sliding", where new posts are made with the purpose of moving undesirable topics out of sight.
  - Blikkentrekker 5y ago
    It's possible, but they would be spam and dealt with, and I do not see this problem on DeviantArt at all.
- jimmygrapes 5y ago
  This seems identical to futaba/chan-style "bumping" which is imo easily gamed without having some other variable (logarithmic time fall off or something) AND (has significant spam protection OR has significant moderation/user reporting system). It is usually paired with a post limit as well, so that eventually old conversations fall off and disappear and/or get archived.
  - Blikkentrekker 5y ago
    Most traditional forums never had a timer system, and it did not seem to be needed. It indeed resulted in some threads being alive for months, but that was only because the discussion in it was healthy and interesting, and new input on the same subject continued to be had. They typically also do not have an archival system and often præfer that one revive an old thread that was dead for years rather than make a new one on the same subject, as in doing so all the old content becomes visible again for a fresh perspective. I agree that often it is quite interesting to receive new replies with new input to a thread that died off three years ago. I am not seeing these fora being gamed at all: in order to game them, one must provide content interesting enough to draw replies. — Visibility is purely a function of the number of replies, not of agreement.
tomatotomato37 5y ago
That feels like it would just turn into some type of toxic popularity contest where prominent posters that get a lot of engagement get boosted to the top, irregardless of the actual quality of said engagement. In addition it may also create some type of gatekeeping effect, though in my opinion that's not exactly a bad thing for niche communities such as this.

tester756 5y ago

upvotes/downvotes/likes are in my opinion net negative It's hard to convince world to move from this thing, but it promotes some kind of addiction, an ability to manipulate web 2.0 is kinda mistake when it comes to news and stuff.

Blikkentrekker 5y ago
It exists on many websites because that userbase wants it. Virtually all websites that have them such as Reddit, Facebook, and Youtube are known to promote isolated echo chambers and extremist views, but that's what they attract so it's not going away or they would loose their userbase. I do not believe that Reddit was started with this mentality, but at it's start wanted to promote decentralized leadership, but by now they must have realized this and their current policy seems to be to capitalize on their current userbase, which is known to favor and enjoy echo chambers. — H.N. is to a certain extent spared from this because it only has one page rather than attempting to divide itself into semi-isolated communities, but it's still quite obvious in distinct threads that one can be upvoted for saying the same thing one can be downvoted for in another thread, and that in general threads are filled with agreement. Ironically, in this very comment train, people are mostly agreeing with each other that the voting system creates too much of an echo-chamber.
- DoreenMichele 5y ago
  I don't agree with this take. I run multiple small Reddits, though several are restricted which means no one but me can post new content (though other people can comment). There are a lot of small Reddits that are off the beaten path. It's a diverse ecosystem and you aren't required to participate in the larger subs which may well be "an echo chamber" because they were started for a specific interest and you either are into that or not and if not, it's not really the place for you. I don't think you need to be fighty and actively oppose every single "popular" opinion to provide a different take. I say a lot of unpopular things on HN and, so far, they haven't banned me. I'm older than I used to be. I'm more inclined to pick my battles and I have a different understanding of how to introduce other ideas. If you do it right, you can get taken seriously sometimes though it's a slow process and not for the innately impatient or the folks looking to grab karma or the folks wanting to make a splash.

blooalien 5y ago

> "I've certainly noticed quite a bit on H.N., and even more so on Reddit that upvoted threads with sensationalist headlines are more heavily scrutinized in the comments for being misleading." Exactly why I read the comments before I click the link to the article, and why I'll read the article (assuming the comments give me a valid reason to) before commenting about it. ;)