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Faith: patience with mystery You and I are not much different. The difference I chose to believe because I know we humans are story machines. I prefer being p

by Xc43 5y ago

Faith: patience with mystery You and I are not much different. The difference I chose to believe because I know we humans are story machines. I prefer being part of a story, as co-author than author of my own pointless story. That is all. What allows me to say "Jesus is my Lord and Savior" is my patience, my faith. I do not know more than you. But I like the story that Jesus started and am willing to be part of it at a personal cost. It is better than nothing.

rendall 5y ago
I'm afraid I cannot frame this question in a way that does not sound judgmental, and for that I am sincerely sorry. I'm genuinely curious why you would pick an arbitrary story out of the infinite multitudes and "choose to believe it" as a way to combat existential despair. It would be as if I, gaining some comfort hearing about Ragnarok, "chose to believe" that Odin literally exists and somewhere there is a bifrost bridge I could visit. Can't you like the story and gain value out of it without also believing in its literal truth?
- Xc43 5y ago
  Choosing to believe is mainly suspending disbelief. Or patience with mystery. Forever. The more patience, the greater faith. Liking a story is not sufficient to benefit significantly from it. In other words, to have skin in the game makes you gain more. The story you contribute to does not matter until you have faith. When you have faith, in any thing, you enjoy conviction, certainty. Conviction is intrinsically valuable. What if I had the proof your life is very valuable to Humanity? Would you live differently?... This is the sort of proof and subsequent gain faith gives. While, sure you can gain something out of liking a story, but the gain is lesser, the lesser your faith in said story. I choose Jesus' story because I chose him in the past and so far have been rewarded for my decision. I informed myself about other stories when I was openly atheist, out of curiosity. I did not think I could make a fully informed decision about this so I went with was closest. Since learning more about it and other stories, I believe, this is the best non disproven story. So I sacrifice myself to it. It is a pro-humanity story. Integrity. Joy. Anti-mimesis (yes, René Girard is part of the picture). Those are very tangible gains. It is not about being the greatest or being obedient. At its core, it is the story self-sacrifice/service for the benefit everyone, yourself included. There is only one piece of advice I dare give atheists: intentionally have faith in something. See where that leads you. There is only so many stories that rings true to a human being throughout their whole life and that of their progeny, I believe Christianity is one of them if not the only one.
  - rendall 5y ago
    > There is only one piece of advice I dare give atheists: intentionally have faith in something. I mean that makes sense that you would do that. If you can get an atheist to accept the premise that faith is somehow necessary, then you have validated your own worldview. To me, faith is not some noble stance in the face of uncertainty. It is a metaphorical shrug in the face of cognitive dissonance. The correct spiritual answer to cognitive dissonance is to bravely resolve it, not prop it up with the crutch that is faith. Of course philosophies that require its adherents to accept manifest absurdity are going to have a safety valve like faith or enlightenment. That's the only way people could ask a question like "How could God, who is Perfect and Good, allow such Evil to exist?" and go on and on and on without coming to the obvious conclusion embedded in the question itself. Or Why the hell are we taking seriously the fevered imaginings of desert goat herders dead these 2000 years? well, because faith So, yes, I get why you're asking atheists to have faith. Ask yourself why you need that validation.
    - Xc43 5y ago
      Don't get me wrong, I do not give advice unsolicited. Faithful or not it is just a bad idea. I dare give advice when asked. The end of my last comment could have been better built. I never stated that faith was necessary, only useful and empowering. It is not a purely religious concept. It is one of those things that cannot be conveyed through words, the same way I cannot convey the color red or wetness without the receiver experiencing it. I imagine color blind people will never get red the way most do. I would never expect a self-professed atheist to recognize the nobility of religious faith but to at least acknowledge its difficulty, yes. It is difficult. To act with conviction in the face of uncertainty, that is difficult and I claim noble. To start a startup requires faith in yourself, your product, team because no can one guarantee success yet you need certainty to act. Faith is not a purely religious concept. Faith is recognized by its repercussions. An example of that is that we do take seriously desert shepherds dead 2000 years ago. But, it is not faith alone. It is also about the foundation for that faith. If all are able of faith, I guess the Norse had it. Why is that religion dead though, why did people stop believing? It is because after 2000 years people worthy of my trust in their intellect think of Jesus that I considered this man named Jesus worthy at least to think about.

by Xc43 5y ago

rendall 5y ago

I'm afraid I cannot frame this question in a way that does not sound judgmental, and for that I am sincerely sorry. I'm genuinely curious why you would pick an arbitrary story out of the infinite multitudes and "choose to believe it" as a way to combat existential despair. It would be as if I, gaining some comfort hearing about Ragnarok, "chose to believe" that Odin literally exists and somewhere there is a bifrost bridge I could visit. Can't you like the story and gain value out of it without also believing in its literal truth?

Xc43 5y ago
Choosing to believe is mainly suspending disbelief. Or patience with mystery. Forever. The more patience, the greater faith. Liking a story is not sufficient to benefit significantly from it. In other words, to have skin in the game makes you gain more. The story you contribute to does not matter until you have faith. When you have faith, in any thing, you enjoy conviction, certainty. Conviction is intrinsically valuable. What if I had the proof your life is very valuable to Humanity? Would you live differently?... This is the sort of proof and subsequent gain faith gives. While, sure you can gain something out of liking a story, but the gain is lesser, the lesser your faith in said story. I choose Jesus' story because I chose him in the past and so far have been rewarded for my decision. I informed myself about other stories when I was openly atheist, out of curiosity. I did not think I could make a fully informed decision about this so I went with was closest. Since learning more about it and other stories, I believe, this is the best non disproven story. So I sacrifice myself to it. It is a pro-humanity story. Integrity. Joy. Anti-mimesis (yes, René Girard is part of the picture). Those are very tangible gains. It is not about being the greatest or being obedient. At its core, it is the story self-sacrifice/service for the benefit everyone, yourself included. There is only one piece of advice I dare give atheists: intentionally have faith in something. See where that leads you. There is only so many stories that rings true to a human being throughout their whole life and that of their progeny, I believe Christianity is one of them if not the only one.
- rendall 5y ago
  > There is only one piece of advice I dare give atheists: intentionally have faith in something. I mean that makes sense that you would do that. If you can get an atheist to accept the premise that faith is somehow necessary, then you have validated your own worldview. To me, faith is not some noble stance in the face of uncertainty. It is a metaphorical shrug in the face of cognitive dissonance. The correct spiritual answer to cognitive dissonance is to bravely resolve it, not prop it up with the crutch that is faith. Of course philosophies that require its adherents to accept manifest absurdity are going to have a safety valve like faith or enlightenment. That's the only way people could ask a question like "How could God, who is Perfect and Good, allow such Evil to exist?" and go on and on and on without coming to the obvious conclusion embedded in the question itself. Or Why the hell are we taking seriously the fevered imaginings of desert goat herders dead these 2000 years? well, because faith So, yes, I get why you're asking atheists to have faith. Ask yourself why you need that validation.
  - Xc43 5y ago
    Don't get me wrong, I do not give advice unsolicited. Faithful or not it is just a bad idea. I dare give advice when asked. The end of my last comment could have been better built. I never stated that faith was necessary, only useful and empowering. It is not a purely religious concept. It is one of those things that cannot be conveyed through words, the same way I cannot convey the color red or wetness without the receiver experiencing it. I imagine color blind people will never get red the way most do. I would never expect a self-professed atheist to recognize the nobility of religious faith but to at least acknowledge its difficulty, yes. It is difficult. To act with conviction in the face of uncertainty, that is difficult and I claim noble. To start a startup requires faith in yourself, your product, team because no can one guarantee success yet you need certainty to act. Faith is not a purely religious concept. Faith is recognized by its repercussions. An example of that is that we do take seriously desert shepherds dead 2000 years ago. But, it is not faith alone. It is also about the foundation for that faith. If all are able of faith, I guess the Norse had it. Why is that religion dead though, why did people stop believing? It is because after 2000 years people worthy of my trust in their intellect think of Jesus that I considered this man named Jesus worthy at least to think about.