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I hate to say it, but climate change is a classic tragedy of the commons problem. Countries are economically incentivized to "cheat". Until "we" are willing t

I hate to say it, but climate change is a classic tragedy of the commons problem. Countries are economically incentivized to "cheat". Until "we" are willing to, literally, go to war to enforce global emissions standards and other policies, it's hopeless.

frereubu 5y ago
Quite apart from the fact that wars tend not to go the way that the aggressors predict (Afghanistan comes to mind...) war is massively carbon intensive. I get your point about tragedy of the commons, but going to war about it is probably a good deal worse than doing nothing. I have so many questions too - who's going to go to war? What or who are they going to fight? It's such a strange idea.
- rich_sasha 5y ago
  Speaking of the war: the Afghan conflict cost somewhere in the region of $1tn. Counterfactual, but I wonder how much that money would do for fighting climate change.
wolverine876 5y ago
Plenty of countries implement climate change protections, and do other things to protect the commons, especially the environment. It's a commonplace thing. It's really the US that is the exception on climate. There's some fetish about violence these days, despite living in a world where the international order and democracy, both non-violent solutions to politics, have built freedom and prosperity many orders of magnitude beyond anything in human history. We can do it. Let's stop talking about how hopeless we are and just get to work.
- Zababa 5y ago
  > It's really the US that is the exception on climate. I don't think it is. For exemple, Brazil and China are both terrible from a climate perspective. Africa is also not reducing their numbers of births. The USA may be behind Europe, but the rest of the world still exists.
  - loopz 5y ago
    > Africa is also not reducing their numbers of births. African birth rates have declined steadily since the 1950's: https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/AFR/africa/birth-rate https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/AFR/africa/birth-rate There have also been lots of state/local-level initiatives in the US. USA is still an innovative driving-force of the world even though some leaders have tried to sabotage it.
    - Zababa 5y ago
      Africa still has birth rates 3 times higher than Europe. That's a lot. > There have also been lots of state/local-level initiatives in the US. USA is still an innovative driving-force of the world even though some leaders have tried to sabotage it. They are, which is why I initially replied to the comment that singled it out.
  - wolverine876 5y ago
    I don't think significantly poorer countries are a fair comparison; they can't afford to do better. The US is the wealthiest country in the history of the world. Among wealthy countries, the US is the exception (maybe there's one I'm not thinking of).
- beervirus 5y ago
  > It's really the US that is the exception on climate. China’s pumping out more than twice as much CO2 as the USA is. https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/co2-emissions-by-country/ https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/co2-emissions-by...
  - loopz 5y ago
    Per Capita paints a completely different picture: https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/co2-emissions-per-capita/ https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/co2-emissions-pe...
    - beervirus 5y ago
      Yes, if you look at it per capita, the US is #16 instead of #2. That is a great point that makes it even clearer that the US is not some horrible exception to the worldwide trend.
    - tomatotomato37 5y ago
      The climate doesn't care if it's 100 people emitting 1 unit of CO2 or 1 person emitting 100, it's going to have the same effect either way. China does not get a free pass because it has a lot of people or it likes to pretend it's still a developing nation, it's just as responsible as any western nation for fixing this mess
      - loopz 5y ago
        Simply divide by sqrt(Capita) if you want an average between these stances. Good point btw.
  - bellyfullofbac 5y ago
    Yeah, but where is the world's factory? Where was your shiny phone, or your kid's Nerf gun (or whatever plastic toy they have), made?
    - beervirus 5y ago
- adrianN 5y ago
  Unfortunately the US is not an exception. Pretty much no one is on track to limit warming to 2°: https://climateactiontracker.org/ https://climateactiontracker.org/

frereubu 5y ago

Quite apart from the fact that wars tend not to go the way that the aggressors predict (Afghanistan comes to mind...) war is massively carbon intensive. I get your point about tragedy of the commons, but going to war about it is probably a good deal worse than doing nothing. I have so many questions too - who's going to go to war? What or who are they going to fight? It's such a strange idea.

rich_sasha 5y ago
Speaking of the war: the Afghan conflict cost somewhere in the region of $1tn. Counterfactual, but I wonder how much that money would do for fighting climate change.

wolverine876 5y ago

Plenty of countries implement climate change protections, and do other things to protect the commons, especially the environment. It's a commonplace thing. It's really the US that is the exception on climate. There's some fetish about violence these days, despite living in a world where the international order and democracy, both non-violent solutions to politics, have built freedom and prosperity many orders of magnitude beyond anything in human history. We can do it. Let's stop talking about how hopeless we are and just get to work.

Zababa 5y ago
> It's really the US that is the exception on climate. I don't think it is. For exemple, Brazil and China are both terrible from a climate perspective. Africa is also not reducing their numbers of births. The USA may be behind Europe, but the rest of the world still exists.
- loopz 5y ago
  > Africa is also not reducing their numbers of births. African birth rates have declined steadily since the 1950's: https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/AFR/africa/birth-rate https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/AFR/africa/birth-rate There have also been lots of state/local-level initiatives in the US. USA is still an innovative driving-force of the world even though some leaders have tried to sabotage it.
  - Zababa 5y ago
    Africa still has birth rates 3 times higher than Europe. That's a lot. > There have also been lots of state/local-level initiatives in the US. USA is still an innovative driving-force of the world even though some leaders have tried to sabotage it. They are, which is why I initially replied to the comment that singled it out.
- wolverine876 5y ago
  I don't think significantly poorer countries are a fair comparison; they can't afford to do better. The US is the wealthiest country in the history of the world. Among wealthy countries, the US is the exception (maybe there's one I'm not thinking of).
beervirus 5y ago
> It's really the US that is the exception on climate. China’s pumping out more than twice as much CO2 as the USA is. https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/co2-emissions-by-country/ https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/co2-emissions-by...
- loopz 5y ago
  Per Capita paints a completely different picture: https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/co2-emissions-per-capita/ https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/co2-emissions-pe...
  - beervirus 5y ago
    Yes, if you look at it per capita, the US is #16 instead of #2. That is a great point that makes it even clearer that the US is not some horrible exception to the worldwide trend.
  - tomatotomato37 5y ago
    The climate doesn't care if it's 100 people emitting 1 unit of CO2 or 1 person emitting 100, it's going to have the same effect either way. China does not get a free pass because it has a lot of people or it likes to pretend it's still a developing nation, it's just as responsible as any western nation for fixing this mess
    - loopz 5y ago
      Simply divide by sqrt(Capita) if you want an average between these stances. Good point btw.
- bellyfullofbac 5y ago
  Yeah, but where is the world's factory? Where was your shiny phone, or your kid's Nerf gun (or whatever plastic toy they have), made?
  - beervirus 5y ago
adrianN 5y ago
Unfortunately the US is not an exception. Pretty much no one is on track to limit warming to 2°: https://climateactiontracker.org/ https://climateactiontracker.org/