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That's the weakest of arguments. I don't trust that governments _can_ protect my data better than us nerds. If there is a backdoor, it will only be a matter of

That's the weakest of arguments. I don't trust that governments _can_ protect my data better than us nerds. If there is a backdoor, it will only be a matter of time before the criminals get access to it. It would be the holy grail of data. If I were a foreign regime with bad intentions, I would put a lot of resources into getting access to those chats. You could probably ruin anybody's life with access to their personal chats by extorting them, etc. It's going to create a whole new criminal sector. People sifting through other people's personal lives. I'm not implying that these people may have committed an offence, there are many things I don't want anyone else to see other than the person I'm sending the message to. The "law-abiding citizen" / "Only criminals have something to hide" argument is complete bullshit. With access to personal chats you can ruin careers, families, relationships, etc, etc. And what can happen, will -most likely- happen. E2EE prevents that. Edit: Sorry, I misread the parent comment!

tortasaur 5y ago
You misread the parent comment. It didn't say the government could protect data well.
hhfss 5y ago
I'm not sure you understand the argument you're replying to. The grandparent is saying "if you ban E2EE only criminals will have E2EE" It's a variation on "if you ban guns only criminals will have them."
- SiempreViernes 5y ago
  I think it's a funny argument to make after months of stories about how criminals have extra wide backdoors in their crypto. I guess nobody here saw them?
- marcus_holmes 5y ago
  > It's a variation on "if you ban guns only criminals will have them." Most countries have banned guns and there are way less problems with guns than those countries that haven't banned guns. Is this an argument for or against the EU proposal?
  - eitland 5y ago
    This is utterly wrong in more than one way: First, "most countries have banned guns": Here, from worldpopulationreview.com is a list of countries that has kind of banned guns (at least made them hard to get): """ Today, we’ll focus on the nations around the world where restrictive policies are in place that make it illegal or extremely difficult for ordinary citizens to own a gun. Those nations are: China - Restricted Eritrea – Banned India – Restricted Indonesia – Restricted Iran – Restricted Japan – Restricted Lebanon – Restricted Malaysia – Restricted North Korea – Banned Singapore – Restricted Taiwan – Restricted Venezuela – Restricted Vietnam – Restricted """ ...and yes by the way, while some of these are OK like Japan and Taiwan you are in some interesting company if your country joins that list. Secondly: "there are way less problems with guns than those countries that haven't banned guns." I give you Norway, Switzerland and Austria as a start. Probably Finland and a number of others as well: All these have and have had loads of actual assault rifles (G3-s, HK416 etc, not semiautomatic AR-15s) complete with non trivial amounts of ammo around in private homes. Yet I'd rather live in any of those instead of any of the ones on the list above. So clearly something else is at play.
    - marcus_holmes 5y ago
      OK, well, I have lived in the UK, Isle of Man, Australia and Germany, all of which restrict private ownership of guns, and don't appear on that list. So I suspect that list is wrong. Can you post the actual link to the source you're quoting?
      - rsj_hn 5y ago
        Germany has widespread gun ownership (estimate of 20 guns per 100 people). They are regulated but certainly not banned. In the UK, guns are pretty rare (about 5 guns per 100 people). The poster was talking about these low gun ownership rate countries, and was not trying to make a comprehensive list. But it is true that the low gun ownership rate nations (<5 guns per 100) (ignoring ones in desperate povery where people can't afford guns) tend to, on balance, be much more authoritarian than the high gun ownership rate nations (>20 guns per 100 people). See the wikipedia article here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_g...

tortasaur 5y ago

You misread the parent comment. It didn't say the government could protect data well.

hhfss 5y ago

I'm not sure you understand the argument you're replying to. The grandparent is saying "if you ban E2EE only criminals will have E2EE" It's a variation on "if you ban guns only criminals will have them."

SiempreViernes 5y ago
I think it's a funny argument to make after months of stories about how criminals have extra wide backdoors in their crypto. I guess nobody here saw them?
marcus_holmes 5y ago
> It's a variation on "if you ban guns only criminals will have them." Most countries have banned guns and there are way less problems with guns than those countries that haven't banned guns. Is this an argument for or against the EU proposal?
- eitland 5y ago
  This is utterly wrong in more than one way: First, "most countries have banned guns": Here, from worldpopulationreview.com is a list of countries that has kind of banned guns (at least made them hard to get): """ Today, we’ll focus on the nations around the world where restrictive policies are in place that make it illegal or extremely difficult for ordinary citizens to own a gun. Those nations are: China - Restricted Eritrea – Banned India – Restricted Indonesia – Restricted Iran – Restricted Japan – Restricted Lebanon – Restricted Malaysia – Restricted North Korea – Banned Singapore – Restricted Taiwan – Restricted Venezuela – Restricted Vietnam – Restricted """ ...and yes by the way, while some of these are OK like Japan and Taiwan you are in some interesting company if your country joins that list. Secondly: "there are way less problems with guns than those countries that haven't banned guns." I give you Norway, Switzerland and Austria as a start. Probably Finland and a number of others as well: All these have and have had loads of actual assault rifles (G3-s, HK416 etc, not semiautomatic AR-15s) complete with non trivial amounts of ammo around in private homes. Yet I'd rather live in any of those instead of any of the ones on the list above. So clearly something else is at play.
  - marcus_holmes 5y ago
    OK, well, I have lived in the UK, Isle of Man, Australia and Germany, all of which restrict private ownership of guns, and don't appear on that list. So I suspect that list is wrong. Can you post the actual link to the source you're quoting?
    - rsj_hn 5y ago
      Germany has widespread gun ownership (estimate of 20 guns per 100 people). They are regulated but certainly not banned. In the UK, guns are pretty rare (about 5 guns per 100 people). The poster was talking about these low gun ownership rate countries, and was not trying to make a comprehensive list. But it is true that the low gun ownership rate nations (<5 guns per 100) (ignoring ones in desperate povery where people can't afford guns) tend to, on balance, be much more authoritarian than the high gun ownership rate nations (>20 guns per 100 people). See the wikipedia article here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_g...