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For me and a friend, we'd joke about our existential despair. "What's wrong?" "The Void" Any philosophy that just asserted that the Universe has meaning was a

For me and a friend, we'd joke about our existential despair. "What's wrong?" "The Void" Any philosophy that just asserted that the Universe has meaning was a non-starter, for me. There is nothing that I can see that unambiguously tells me that the Universe ultimately has absolute purpose or meaning. It could, but anyone who tells you they know the fundamental question of why we are here is delusional or a liar. The only overarching framework that could situate me confidently in the world would have to explicitly acknowledge that the Universe could in fact be meaningless. An English course in college helped me out with this. A lot of the course covered Norse religion and philosophy, which was intensely bleak. Ragnarok, in one version, is the End. There is no rebirth or renewal. The world will be consumed by Fenrir and the chaos wolves, and after, for eternity, the world will be Winter. In that philosophy, this is a fact of life: this future is preordained. Your best outcome is to be invited by the Gods to fight - and lose - in the final battle against the Forces of Chaos and Despair. You're going down, but the highest honor you can bring yourself and your kin is to go down fighting. Humans create meaning in the face of an uncaring, indifferent Void. It's our superpower. Human-created meaning is arbitrary, but no less real for that. The fact that Vikings chose to create meaning by slaughtering their unfortunate neighbors is a bit beside the point. That was their interpretation, but it's not the only, nor best one. Hwæt! The Universe might be meaningless, these nihilistic Viking ghosts whispered to me, across the centuries. Live bravely, do not allow yourself to wallow in despair while entropy gathers itself. Make meaning, fight, build, love, stay healthy right in the face of the Uncaring Void. It's the only thing you can do. Entropy will win. Until then, make it meaningful.

thrww20210608 5y ago
The many Marian apparitions that have been documented, makes me certain that there is meaning to life: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_apparition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_apparition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun Feel free to ask me more about Catholicism if this piques your interest!
- costcopizza 5y ago
  What book should I read?
- rendall 5y ago
  Whatever works for you, and I have sincere respect for you Christians (mostly, some are assholes), but at the core, you just have to take a leap of faith in order to accept that philosophy. I am constitutionally unable to accept a metaphysics that depends on its adherents willfully disregarding anything at all.
- thrwwmbkpr 5y ago
  I come from a Protestant background and have always been very interested in reports of possession as a "proof" of a spiritual realm. It can't prove everything (and even the fact of possession can't verifiably be established as far as I've read), but it can present a powerful argument for forces at work beyond our scientific knowledge. Your links got me very interested in Marian apparitions. Are there any other good sources you would recommend?
hungrykoala 5y ago
I think the "Universe/life has no meaning" sentence can mean two completely different things: 1. It could have a meaning, but there is none. For example food can have taste, but if it has none, we assume there is something wrong with it. 2. It is not possible for it to have a meaning, because it simply lacks that property. For example: what is the color of running? There is no color, and could never be. I think "Universe/life has no meaning" falls in the second category, and I have absolutely no problem with that.
- all2 5y ago
  > There is no color, and could never be. This illustrates the scope of experience we apply to the world. I have never seen a color of running, but somoeone has. Synesthesia is very real and to those who possess it, there is a color of running. There are whole worlds of understanding that we cannot see because we lack the ability to see them. Some we can learn to see, some we deny because of reason or they have faded in our memories, some we dismiss out of hand because, well, "that can't possibly be true". All that to say: you might be missing the meaning of life, the universe, everything because you are not equipped to see it.
  - naasking 5y ago
    > This illustrates the scope of experience we apply to the world. I have never seen a color of running, but somoeone has. Synesthesia is very real and to those who possess it, there is a color of running. Subjective properties are not objective properties. Synesthetes perceive subjective interpretations of objective properties. The perceptual distortions enabled by psychedelics are also not reflecting objective properties of the world, but subjective properties related to the information processing in your brain.
    - all2 5y ago
      You're sidestepping the metaphor. The point is that you and I may not be mentally equipped to observe reality in a way that shows underlying purpose. There's the assumption that the thing yields its purpose when inspected. Consider a screw driver. If you and I see it but lack the knowledge of context into which it was created (driving screws) we would say it is obviouslymechanical, obviously designed and manufactured. A screw driver (or other mechanical apparati) don'thappen by accident. But no amount of inspection, theorizing, or philosophical discourse would yield its purpose or its use cases to us. We assume, by looking at the universe, that it (the thing) will yield to us purpose or reason for being. We can't get that information about the universe from the universe. We need to step back and consider "where did the universe come from". The context of origin may yield the purpose of the thing.
stared 5y ago
> Human-created meaning Could you give an example for "meaning" which is not "human-created"? A human (and possibly other animals') instinct to create meaning might be not different from a spider's instinct to make a web. "Meaning" looks like an evolution-selected motivation tool for long-term goals. If it is true, it is an ill-motivated question whether there is some universal meaning. The same as if there is an objective cobweb. Still - yes, it might be sad for us that "meaning" does not extrapolate beyond our human psychology.
- NL807 5y ago
  > Could you give an example for "meaning" which is not "human-created"? There is none, and that is the point. "Human-created" is just an emphasis that meaning is a fabricated construct by the human mind.
  - rendall 5y ago
    You got it
- svcrunch 5y ago
  > Could you give an example for "meaning" which is not "human-created"? Without providing a more objective definition of "meaning", this question seems circular. Hypothetically, if someone gave you the example you seek, I see two possible responses: 1. You see the "meaning". You'll then say that it implies the meaning is "human-created" (since it was *you* who found it meaningful). 2. You do not see meaning in it, so you remain unswayed. Neither outcome would cause you to change your position, which implies your position is actually just a definition. If you argue that meaning is inherently subjective, then there is no point in asking for meaning which is not "human-created". I will make a proposal for an objective definition of meaningful: something is meaningful if it is non-random, in the sense defined by Kolmogorov, i.e., it is compressible. Using this definition, there is meaning all around us, very little of it human-created. Statistical reasoning, which drives the scientific endeavor, is among our most powerful tools for discovering this meaning. The question really is: where does all this meaning point? Unfortunately, even our best statistical methods fail badly in answering such questions. A concrete and convincing example is presented here: Could a Neuroscientist Understand a Microprocessor? (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5230747/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5230747/)
wpietri 5y ago
Yeah, I think one of the issues people have with lack of intrinsic meaning is that they experience it as a loss. My parents weren't religious, so I grew up an atheist. I never believed that there was intrinsic meaning, intrinsic purpose. That was intimidating in my youth, as I was learning about the vast scale of the universe. Now it seems great. The universe is a blank canvas: we can create meaning for ourselves. One related thing I especially love is the art documentary "Rivers and Tides", about the work of Andy Goldsworthy. It does a great job of conveying beauty and meaning even when it is transitory. Especially when it is transitory. It's only when give up the belief in vast, universal meaning, that meanings we create for ourselves and one another can be seen in their proper scale.
- rendall 5y ago
  > Yeah, I think one of the issues people have with lack of intrinsic meaning is that they experience it as a loss. This is kind of a clueless, dismissive response. If existential despair has not touched you, how marvelous for you. It passes most people by. I would not read that article and then smugly congratulate myself on this. Your self-satisfaction at being raised correctly is no different from someone being just fine with the answers they received in their Orthodox upbringing. I grew up in a secular, non-religious household as well. There was no crisis of faith for me. There were simply no good answers and a lot of bullshit answers. Even pure empirical explanations are useless as to the why. The article discusses why some people wrestle with existential questions like why are we here, what is the purpose of existence from a young age to the point of depression. There is nothing there about people being particularly religious, or having disappointed expectations.
  - wpietri 5y ago
    I don't mean it as dismissive, just factual. Loss is hard. I'll leave its cluelessness for others to judge. But you're wrong to say, "There is nothing there about people being particularly religious." The author describes it as the start of things for him, writing "I, on the other hand, had grown up in the Deep South in an insular culture that had limited vision and rigid beliefs; my loving parents were traditionally religious and tried to live conforming, righteous, and conventional lives."
NL807 5y ago
I think I'm cool with that. There is no meaning to any of this chaos, but I make an effort to make my life feel meaningful, and that's all that matters. Like clay, on its own has no purpose, but you can fashion it into bricks and build something with it.
- bitexploder 5y ago
  Though we know of the universe and it’s vastness, now, the thing that keeps me grounded is that we exist in a framework. The framework of the planet, of our evolution, of our exact position in space and time, etc. it all surrounds us. It is a great cosmic accident, or triumph if you want to be glass half full, that we exist. It seems a shame to not fully explore this framework of ours and understand as much as we can. I know I am just making up my own meaning, but I like to juxtapose the realness of discovery, knowledge, the human experience with the vastness of the cosmos. We are infinitesimal blips in the cosmos, yet for us it is everything. I think deep inside of me is an insatiable curiosity about everything and that drives me and keeps the existential crisis at bay because… there isn’t really one. It’s just us here on earth and we are enough. This isn’t a rigorous philosophical statement or way of approaching the world, but it works for me. (I have read a lot of philosophy and even dabbled in formal philosophy to try and make sense of everything, but I keep pulling up to simpler concepts to rationalize it all)
- all2 5y ago
  Chaos is an interesting word to use. Underneath all the chaos is so much order. Dare I say the universe is mechanistic in its working. The earth orbits in an orderly fashion, set at a distance from the sun that is just right to sustain life. The moon makes its transit, and with us all the planets here move in their own ordered fashion. Or I suppose we could go smaller. Your body moves and goes, replicating one of the most complex forms of machine code known to man. That replication is paired with voltage gradients across groups of cells that determine macro organization of cellular structures.. The human body is self replicating, self correcting, and even keeps itself clean. You see chaos, I see order (and I admit the order is becoming more chaotic). But that you recognize the chaos gives light to the fact that you desire order. And there is order to be seen if you look for it.
brundolf 5y ago
To add to this: I grew up with religion and eventually broke away from it. I went on this hyper-realist streak, looking to break down life and reality into its most fundamental parts. I assumed this would include true meaning. It didn't. What I found is that meaning is like a delicate ecosystem, and I was strip-mining. I thought I was breaking reality down into its most fundamental pieces, harvesting them and learning the truest truth, but it turned out there were important things that couldn't survive the process, and I was destroying them. It was only by allowing myself suspension of disbelief and embracing the meaning I already knew inside of me that I was able to pull myself out of nihilism and find happiness again. Meaning was there; I simply had to stop getting in its way. It may not have any physical or metaphysical reality, but it has a reality in the human spirit, and that's really all it needs to be. The proper response to "But meaning is just a fragile idea that lives only in our minds!" is "Yes! And that's why it is so precious and so important to guard carefully!" We must tend to our gardens, not grind them down for their components Epilogue: I didn't return to religion, though I did come to appreciate how many things religion got right via millennia of accumulated human experience. And a nice thing about knowing that meaning doesn't come from metaphysics is you don't have to subscribe to any one doctrine; you can internalize the pieces that seem true and set aside the pieces that you believe are wrong, morally or logically.
- SMAAART 5y ago
  > Meaning was there; I simply had to stop getting in its way. You just described the Hero's Journey (Monomyth). The end of the journey is nothing more than the return to the starting point, the world has not changed, the Hero is the one that has changed. Many people do know this, understand this, and see (their) life as a Journey; what people miss is that not everyone is a Hero. Welcome home.
- physicles 5y ago
  I had a very similar journey. Even after 10 years I sometimes still slip into existential despair, and the remedy is, as you said, a bit subtle: don’t outright ignore it, but also don’t attack it directly. No matter how hard you stare into the void, you will never see anything but darkness. It’s a bit like happiness: if you pursue happiness directly, you will surely fail. Instead, pursue worthy goals and care for others, and happiness will take care of itself. I also learned that, as you wrote, we can lean on human biology. If one asks, “Why should I wish to strive to make progress in life and keep living?” the a suitable answer is simply “Because I’m human and that’s how I’m wired.”
pizza 5y ago
Is it even meaningful to say that the universe - everything - has an entropy? Isn't it not even meaningful to talk about the entropy of something that is in a non-equilibriated state? People point to experiments about gas particles bouncing off the walls of closed boxes to prove how entropy is always increasing, but it really makes no sense to transfer that to the whole universe. I have been much more convinced that the universe, starting from a maximally structured configuration, tends to even greater structure, as Julian Barbour wrote about in the Janus Point. Structure emergence, as opposed to catastrophic mixing. My perspective used to be like yours but it has become: the game is only starting.
- alisonkisk 5y ago
  How can there be greater than maximal structure?
  - pizza 5y ago
    I might have messed up that wording.. basically as I understand it the universe started out pretty much homogeneous and uniform, minor deviations became magnified into seeding the structure that exists today, and basically some mix of inflation + gravitation will create additional structure forever, as measured by a value called the "shape potential" C = l_rms/l_mhl of a spatial configuration of particles [0]. l_rms is the root-mean-square length of the system and l_mhl is the mean-harmonic-length. He makes this argument that there are many potential geometric configurations that the universe could have started out as but he believes it started from the one that has the maximum shape potential, iirc. [0] https://physics.aps.org/featured-article-pdf/10.1103/PhysRevLett.113.181101 https://physics.aps.org/featured-article-pdf/10.1103/PhysRev...
- bengarrr 5y ago
  Entropy IS always increasing. Water is always gonna flow downhill. Its not possible to go from maximally ordered to even more ordered, except in some kind of highly localized phenomena. But it is possible that it can return to that maximally ordered state after it reaches a maximally unordered state. This is the idea Roger Penrose has for the big bang is that it is the state of the universe immediately succeeding the heat death of the universe, at a certain point maximally unordered and maximally ordered can look the same, at least mathematically.
handrous 5y ago
> For me and a friend, we'd joke about our existential despair. "What's wrong?" "The Void" The "vacuum the rug" comic went over well in my social group. https://imgur.com/d9KdAvH https://imgur.com/d9KdAvH And so did a certain look into Mister Peanutbutter's inner life, which re-contextualized some things, after seasons of his being a goofy and dopey character (though, very occasionally, and tellingly, not—also, thematic/character spoiler warning for Bojack Horseman, I guess?): "The universe is a cruel, uncaring void. The key to being happy isn't a search for meaning. It's to just keep yourself busy with unimportant nonsense, and eventually, you'll be dead." And of course there's Frost's "Maple", which, for me, always comes to mind when "meaning" is the topic: http://famouspoetsandpoems.com/poets/robert_frost/poems/731 http://famouspoetsandpoems.com/poets/robert_frost/poems/731
johnchristopher 5y ago
> Hwæt! The Universe might be meaningless, these nihilistic Viking ghosts whispered to me, across the centuries. Live bravely, do not allow yourself to wallow in despair while entropy gathers itself. Make meaning, fight, build, love, stay healthy right in the face of the Uncaring Void. It's the only thing you can do. Entropy will win. Until then, make it meaningful. Those vikings are more existentialist than nihilistic to me ^^.
- rendall 5y ago
  Their answer to existential questions was to throw their lives away slaughtering each other and innocents in battle, so they could drink mead in Valhalla until the Final Battle. The question is Existential. Their answer was nihilist.
  - johnchristopher 5y ago
    Agree to disagree ? > The fact that Vikings chose to create meaning by slaughtering their unfortunate neighbors is a bit beside the point. Nihilism is specifically about the idea that there is no meaning and no will to create some. Creating meaning, seeking it, is the inverse of a nihilist answer. If Vikings were nihilists they would have engaged in a multitude of different activities without justifications rather than creating meaning by all fighting anyway. This fighting they do, despite the fact it won't change anything is an existentialist trait and an existentialist answer. I'd concede it's close to a philosophical suicide. I am not fluent enough in English and I remember not much from philo 101 so allow me to quote wikipedia: A pervasive theme in existentialist philosophy, however, is to persist through encounters with the absurd, as seen in Camus' The Myth of Sisyphus ("One must imagine Sisyphus happy")
bengarrr 5y ago
I was thinking about this the other day actually and I believe consciousness serves a higher purpose. If you think about it without any consciousness in the universe, nothing would ever be observed. Without consciousness the universe would just be an empty library, full of history and knowledge but with nobody there to read the books (assuming we are the only conscious life form in the universe). And that's fine I guess, the universe obviously could care less if we read its biography, but at the same time I think about how lucky it is that there is a biography to read at all. We could have been conscious beings in a universe that is truly chaotic and could never be made sense of but here we are in this nice one. That is able to be quantified and one that can be appreciated. One filled with unimaginable beauty and mystery to appreciate. Even if we have no tangible purpose, we still have the ability to observe and in a limited sense manipulate the universe around us and I think that is a highly overlooked facet of what makes being a human not completely unbearable. To me the meaning of life is to just simply to be. Butterfly affect applies here, just simply existing can have an unknowable cascade of effects that ultimately shape the story of the universe. My version is a little different: Entropy will always win. Until then, just exist and enjoy.
- rendall 5y ago
  Perhaps. Personally, I don't find these notions comforting. It could be that our consciousness serves a higher purpose of some sort, or it could be it is but sweet delicious nectar for hungry entities, and we are but fodder. My philosophy must allow for either and neither.
SkyMarshal 5y ago
What you’ve described is pretty close to Optimistic Nihilism, eg “The universe has no intrinsic meaning, so I’ll make my own.” https://duckduckgo.com/?q=optimistic%20nihilism https://duckduckgo.com/?q=optimistic%20nihilism
- rendall 5y ago
  Thanks. I'd love to know more about it
Xc43 5y ago
Faith: patience with mystery You and I are not much different. The difference I chose to believe because I know we humans are story machines. I prefer being part of a story, as co-author than author of my own pointless story. That is all. What allows me to say "Jesus is my Lord and Savior" is my patience, my faith. I do not know more than you. But I like the story that Jesus started and am willing to be part of it at a personal cost. It is better than nothing.
- rendall 5y ago
  I'm afraid I cannot frame this question in a way that does not sound judgmental, and for that I am sincerely sorry. I'm genuinely curious why you would pick an arbitrary story out of the infinite multitudes and "choose to believe it" as a way to combat existential despair. It would be as if I, gaining some comfort hearing about Ragnarok, "chose to believe" that Odin literally exists and somewhere there is a bifrost bridge I could visit. Can't you like the story and gain value out of it without also believing in its literal truth?
  - Xc43 5y ago
    Choosing to believe is mainly suspending disbelief. Or patience with mystery. Forever. The more patience, the greater faith. Liking a story is not sufficient to benefit significantly from it. In other words, to have skin in the game makes you gain more. The story you contribute to does not matter until you have faith. When you have faith, in any thing, you enjoy conviction, certainty. Conviction is intrinsically valuable. What if I had the proof your life is very valuable to Humanity? Would you live differently?... This is the sort of proof and subsequent gain faith gives. While, sure you can gain something out of liking a story, but the gain is lesser, the lesser your faith in said story. I choose Jesus' story because I chose him in the past and so far have been rewarded for my decision. I informed myself about other stories when I was openly atheist, out of curiosity. I did not think I could make a fully informed decision about this so I went with was closest. Since learning more about it and other stories, I believe, this is the best non disproven story. So I sacrifice myself to it. It is a pro-humanity story. Integrity. Joy. Anti-mimesis (yes, René Girard is part of the picture). Those are very tangible gains. It is not about being the greatest or being obedient. At its core, it is the story self-sacrifice/service for the benefit everyone, yourself included. There is only one piece of advice I dare give atheists: intentionally have faith in something. See where that leads you. There is only so many stories that rings true to a human being throughout their whole life and that of their progeny, I believe Christianity is one of them if not the only one.
alfor 5y ago
There might not be meaning to the universe, but there is meaning in the human enterprise. We went from animals, to highly effective and conscious of ourselves and the universe. The human developpement keep pushing forward. I think that the main cause of meaninglessness is our rejection of our own culture ( mostly Christian). There is good reason to reject them as the bearded magician in the sky seem stupid to a modern science minded person, however if you look at those stories at a second degree there is a lot of parts that make sense. Theses stories were the bedrock of our civilisation and the spine of our consciousness. We need to update theses stories with what we now know instead of throwing them out because science make them look outdated. Take a look at Jordan Peterson biblical series, it explain in evolutionary terms how we invented theses stories, what they mean, what we can learn from them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-wWBGo6a2w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-wWBGo6a2w
- rendall 5y ago
  Not sure why you're getting downvoted, but I do appreciate your response. Sure, as metaphors and origin stories and cultural touchstones, they're worth knowing more about. But thinking these tales as literal truth is... not helpful to address existential angst. Not to someone like me, anyway. Not one among those stories explicitly says "Yes, the Universe might indeed have no meaning. That observation is valid, rational and sane. Given that, here's how to handle it..." They are all, to the last, have faith, my child, accept this {patent absurdity}, and that will save you from {other patent absurdity} I'm not really convinced of the Jungian framework, but I do get a kick out of it. It's a hell of a lot of fun.
  - alfor 5y ago
    I think that everything Christian or from Peterson get downvoted in this left leaning place, they are seen as backward or even evil. Theses stories made me realize that we are part of millennia of human understanding evolution. To me there is sometime a deeper meaning at a second level but I have to get past a first reaction of disdain that i got from all things Christian. We are more open to other culture religions as we don’t know their flaws as well. Jung is still opaque to me.
acituan 5y ago
> Any philosophy that just asserted that the Universe has meaning was a non-starter, for me. > Humans create meaning in the face of an uncaring, indifferent Void. I hope you realize that your assertion, which asserts a complete lack of meaning, is just as strong as the philosophies that assert meaning. To me, both are non-starters. To make progress one has to question the framing of the problem, which is actually what most of the continental philosophy enlightenment onwards was about. Maybe meaning already requires consciousness that looks out at the world, so it would be a contradiction to claim the things in themselves has meaning. (subjective) Or maybe there is meaning in things themselves, but there is an intelligibility problem and we can't have a sufficiently comprehensive representation of it internally. (objective). Think it as the model file not fitting a single machine. Or maybe meaning is a process that requires both the conscious looker and a meaning in things themselves, and is dynamically loaded. (neither subjective nor objective). It can still be constrained by cognitive capacity or intelligibility, but maybe we're doing a pretty good job at it nonetheless because we are able to conform to reality in an adaptive manner, and survive better than any other species with our modeling. Also we have been coming up with technologies to beef us up on the intelligibility and capacity fronts; like invention of literacy! So maybe existential depression is a mere stuckness in a local minima of this meaning making process between the conscious looker and objective reality, in no small part thanks to our current philosophical and other institutions really sucking at training us on the dynamic loading process. Nor we have the supporting education to leverage the collective intelligence of the best of the humanity (remember, we've invented literacy, but what is the use if we don't read the most important stuff on this matter?). Without these constraints addressed, "there is definitely no meaning" sounds to me like giving up on looking for one's keys because they are tired and don't feel like they have made any progress. I am not saying there are definitely keys either, but it is a worthy endeavor to try getting better at looking for it at least.
- AnimalMuppet 5y ago
  > So maybe existential depression is a mere stuckness in a local minima of this meaning making process between the conscious looker and objective reality, in no small part thanks to our current philosophical and other institutions really sucking at training us on the dynamic loading process. There are multiple philosophical schools in operation, and they each want to unload what the others have dynamically loaded.
rubicon33 5y ago
Thank you for sharing this! I’ve wrestled with existential questions my whole life. This is one of the best explanations for our existence that I’ve seen. Simple, and meaningful. I also love that this explanation also gives you a framework to live by. Meaning and purpose are arbitrary, but that’s really the value in them. You choose to make your life valuable. Would you really want it any other way?
- rendall 5y ago
  So glad it helped! Before that course, existential despair was nearly constant, from 10 years old through my 20s, and for much the same reasons for me as for the article writer. What is this world, where adults talk about high-minded principles but then act reprehensibly in the shadows? What are principles even for, then? Why are we here? Why am I here? Anyone?
  - rubicon33 5y ago
    Would you mind sharing that course? I’ve very interested in learning more.
    - rendall 5y ago
      It was 20 years ago, and the lecturer was a Vietnam Vet in his spry 60s, named Robert Milgram. I just looked at the faculty list and he is no longer there. It was a "Medieval English Literature" course that started with a long-assed tangent about the "Germanic peoples" and the Vikings, and all of that about Ragnarok and the Norse worldview was delivered by lecture over the course of several weeks. I haven't ever been able to verify my particular understanding of their worldview, but I understand that it changed quite a bit after Christianity got a foothold. All that about rebirth and renewal after Ragnarok was a later addition. Or, my lecturer could have been mistaken, but I doubt it. I wish I could be more helpful, but he did mention Tolkien as a Norse scholar quite a lot.
      - rubicon33 5y ago
        Fascinating stuff. I appreciate the threads to follow. I’ll see what I can dig up.
pmoriarty 5y ago
"Any philosophy that just asserted that the Universe has meaning was a non-starter, for me. There is nothing that I can see that unambiguously tells me that the Universe ultimately has absolute purpose or meaning. It could, but anyone who tells you they know the fundamental question of why we are here is delusional or a liar." For Victor Frankl the meaning of life is not an answer you find out in the world but a question the world asks of you, and which you answer in the way you live your life.
- tartoran 5y ago
  Whenever I feel a hopeless meaningless in my life, Victor Frankl comes to rescue and I reorient my thoughts on the meaning of life, of our lives. The fact that the universe has no meaning does not imply that life cannot be filled with a meaning and fullfill that.
- saiya-jin 5y ago
  I guess that's about it for the topic, anything else are just speculative farts in the wind. The problem is, tons of people despair for a guidance. A bulletproof manual so they don't have to face uncertainties that life brings daily, and do hard moral choices. And what you state, no matter how correct or not, is simply not enough for them. It still scares the shit out of them. Thus, relatively independent formation of various religions that directly or indirectly address this existential question #1 and much more. Its funny how at the end almost all say the same 'be good, don't do evil, and you shall be rewarded'. I do honestly believe that if a person was 'indoctrinated' into religion in their young age, abandoning it completely in later life is extremely hard and impossible for many (ie due to environment they live in, like cigarettes). I can see it in my circle of friends. It would create hole so big in their core personality that they would fall apart like house of cards when first hardship comes. And eventually they always will.
ajb 5y ago
"One of the most potent elements in that fusion is the Northern courage: the theory of courage, which is the great contribution of early Northern literature. This is not a military judgement. I am not asserting that, if the Trojans could have employed a Northern king and his companions, they would have driven Agamemnon and Achilles into the sea, more decisively than the Greek hexameter routs the alliterative line—though it is not improbable. I refer rather to the central position the creed of unyielding will holds in the North. With due reserve we may turn to the tradition of pagan imagination as it survived in Icelandic. Of English pre-Christian mythology we know practically nothing. But the fundamentally similar heroic temper of ancient England and Scandinavia cannot have been founded on (or perhaps rather, cannot have generated) mythologies divergent on this essential point. 'The Northern Gods', Ker said, 'have an exultant extravagance in their warfare which makes them more like Titans than Olympians; only they are on the right side, though it is not the side that wins. The winning side is Chaos and Unreason'—mythologically, the monsters—'but the gods, who are defeated, think that defeat no refutation.' And in their war men are their chosen allies, able when heroic to share in this 'absolute resistance, perfect because without hope'. " -- Tolkien, "The Monsters and the Critics"

thrww20210608 5y ago

The many Marian apparitions that have been documented, makes me certain that there is meaning to life: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_apparition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_apparition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun Feel free to ask me more about Catholicism if this piques your interest!

costcopizza 5y ago
What book should I read?
rendall 5y ago
Whatever works for you, and I have sincere respect for you Christians (mostly, some are assholes), but at the core, you just have to take a leap of faith in order to accept that philosophy. I am constitutionally unable to accept a metaphysics that depends on its adherents willfully disregarding anything at all.
thrwwmbkpr 5y ago
I come from a Protestant background and have always been very interested in reports of possession as a "proof" of a spiritual realm. It can't prove everything (and even the fact of possession can't verifiably be established as far as I've read), but it can present a powerful argument for forces at work beyond our scientific knowledge. Your links got me very interested in Marian apparitions. Are there any other good sources you would recommend?

hungrykoala 5y ago

I think the "Universe/life has no meaning" sentence can mean two completely different things: 1. It could have a meaning, but there is none. For example food can have taste, but if it has none, we assume there is something wrong with it. 2. It is not possible for it to have a meaning, because it simply lacks that property. For example: what is the color of running? There is no color, and could never be. I think "Universe/life has no meaning" falls in the second category, and I have absolutely no problem with that.

all2 5y ago
> There is no color, and could never be. This illustrates the scope of experience we apply to the world. I have never seen a color of running, but somoeone has. Synesthesia is very real and to those who possess it, there is a color of running. There are whole worlds of understanding that we cannot see because we lack the ability to see them. Some we can learn to see, some we deny because of reason or they have faded in our memories, some we dismiss out of hand because, well, "that can't possibly be true". All that to say: you might be missing the meaning of life, the universe, everything because you are not equipped to see it.
- naasking 5y ago
  > This illustrates the scope of experience we apply to the world. I have never seen a color of running, but somoeone has. Synesthesia is very real and to those who possess it, there is a color of running. Subjective properties are not objective properties. Synesthetes perceive subjective interpretations of objective properties. The perceptual distortions enabled by psychedelics are also not reflecting objective properties of the world, but subjective properties related to the information processing in your brain.
  - all2 5y ago
    You're sidestepping the metaphor. The point is that you and I may not be mentally equipped to observe reality in a way that shows underlying purpose. There's the assumption that the thing yields its purpose when inspected. Consider a screw driver. If you and I see it but lack the knowledge of context into which it was created (driving screws) we would say it is obviouslymechanical, obviously designed and manufactured. A screw driver (or other mechanical apparati) don'thappen by accident. But no amount of inspection, theorizing, or philosophical discourse would yield its purpose or its use cases to us. We assume, by looking at the universe, that it (the thing) will yield to us purpose or reason for being. We can't get that information about the universe from the universe. We need to step back and consider "where did the universe come from". The context of origin may yield the purpose of the thing.

stared 5y ago

> Human-created meaning Could you give an example for "meaning" which is not "human-created"? A human (and possibly other animals') instinct to create meaning might be not different from a spider's instinct to make a web. "Meaning" looks like an evolution-selected motivation tool for long-term goals. If it is true, it is an ill-motivated question whether there is some universal meaning. The same as if there is an objective cobweb. Still - yes, it might be sad for us that "meaning" does not extrapolate beyond our human psychology.

NL807 5y ago
> Could you give an example for "meaning" which is not "human-created"? There is none, and that is the point. "Human-created" is just an emphasis that meaning is a fabricated construct by the human mind.
- rendall 5y ago
  You got it
svcrunch 5y ago
> Could you give an example for "meaning" which is not "human-created"? Without providing a more objective definition of "meaning", this question seems circular. Hypothetically, if someone gave you the example you seek, I see two possible responses: 1. You see the "meaning". You'll then say that it implies the meaning is "human-created" (since it was *you* who found it meaningful). 2. You do not see meaning in it, so you remain unswayed. Neither outcome would cause you to change your position, which implies your position is actually just a definition. If you argue that meaning is inherently subjective, then there is no point in asking for meaning which is not "human-created". I will make a proposal for an objective definition of meaningful: something is meaningful if it is non-random, in the sense defined by Kolmogorov, i.e., it is compressible. Using this definition, there is meaning all around us, very little of it human-created. Statistical reasoning, which drives the scientific endeavor, is among our most powerful tools for discovering this meaning. The question really is: where does all this meaning point? Unfortunately, even our best statistical methods fail badly in answering such questions. A concrete and convincing example is presented here: Could a Neuroscientist Understand a Microprocessor? (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5230747/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5230747/)

wpietri 5y ago

Yeah, I think one of the issues people have with lack of intrinsic meaning is that they experience it as a loss. My parents weren't religious, so I grew up an atheist. I never believed that there was intrinsic meaning, intrinsic purpose. That was intimidating in my youth, as I was learning about the vast scale of the universe. Now it seems great. The universe is a blank canvas: we can create meaning for ourselves. One related thing I especially love is the art documentary "Rivers and Tides", about the work of Andy Goldsworthy. It does a great job of conveying beauty and meaning even when it is transitory. Especially when it is transitory. It's only when give up the belief in vast, universal meaning, that meanings we create for ourselves and one another can be seen in their proper scale.

rendall 5y ago
> Yeah, I think one of the issues people have with lack of intrinsic meaning is that they experience it as a loss. This is kind of a clueless, dismissive response. If existential despair has not touched you, how marvelous for you. It passes most people by. I would not read that article and then smugly congratulate myself on this. Your self-satisfaction at being raised correctly is no different from someone being just fine with the answers they received in their Orthodox upbringing. I grew up in a secular, non-religious household as well. There was no crisis of faith for me. There were simply no good answers and a lot of bullshit answers. Even pure empirical explanations are useless as to the why. The article discusses why some people wrestle with existential questions like why are we here, what is the purpose of existence from a young age to the point of depression. There is nothing there about people being particularly religious, or having disappointed expectations.
- wpietri 5y ago
  I don't mean it as dismissive, just factual. Loss is hard. I'll leave its cluelessness for others to judge. But you're wrong to say, "There is nothing there about people being particularly religious." The author describes it as the start of things for him, writing "I, on the other hand, had grown up in the Deep South in an insular culture that had limited vision and rigid beliefs; my loving parents were traditionally religious and tried to live conforming, righteous, and conventional lives."

NL807 5y ago

I think I'm cool with that. There is no meaning to any of this chaos, but I make an effort to make my life feel meaningful, and that's all that matters. Like clay, on its own has no purpose, but you can fashion it into bricks and build something with it.

bitexploder 5y ago
Though we know of the universe and it’s vastness, now, the thing that keeps me grounded is that we exist in a framework. The framework of the planet, of our evolution, of our exact position in space and time, etc. it all surrounds us. It is a great cosmic accident, or triumph if you want to be glass half full, that we exist. It seems a shame to not fully explore this framework of ours and understand as much as we can. I know I am just making up my own meaning, but I like to juxtapose the realness of discovery, knowledge, the human experience with the vastness of the cosmos. We are infinitesimal blips in the cosmos, yet for us it is everything. I think deep inside of me is an insatiable curiosity about everything and that drives me and keeps the existential crisis at bay because… there isn’t really one. It’s just us here on earth and we are enough. This isn’t a rigorous philosophical statement or way of approaching the world, but it works for me. (I have read a lot of philosophy and even dabbled in formal philosophy to try and make sense of everything, but I keep pulling up to simpler concepts to rationalize it all)
all2 5y ago
Chaos is an interesting word to use. Underneath all the chaos is so much order. Dare I say the universe is mechanistic in its working. The earth orbits in an orderly fashion, set at a distance from the sun that is just right to sustain life. The moon makes its transit, and with us all the planets here move in their own ordered fashion. Or I suppose we could go smaller. Your body moves and goes, replicating one of the most complex forms of machine code known to man. That replication is paired with voltage gradients across groups of cells that determine macro organization of cellular structures.. The human body is self replicating, self correcting, and even keeps itself clean. You see chaos, I see order (and I admit the order is becoming more chaotic). But that you recognize the chaos gives light to the fact that you desire order. And there is order to be seen if you look for it.

brundolf 5y ago

To add to this: I grew up with religion and eventually broke away from it. I went on this hyper-realist streak, looking to break down life and reality into its most fundamental parts. I assumed this would include true meaning. It didn't. What I found is that meaning is like a delicate ecosystem, and I was strip-mining. I thought I was breaking reality down into its most fundamental pieces, harvesting them and learning the truest truth, but it turned out there were important things that couldn't survive the process, and I was destroying them. It was only by allowing myself suspension of disbelief and embracing the meaning I already knew inside of me that I was able to pull myself out of nihilism and find happiness again. Meaning was there; I simply had to stop getting in its way. It may not have any physical or metaphysical reality, but it has a reality in the human spirit, and that's really all it needs to be. The proper response to "But meaning is just a fragile idea that lives only in our minds!" is "Yes! And that's why it is so precious and so important to guard carefully!" We must tend to our gardens, not grind them down for their components Epilogue: I didn't return to religion, though I did come to appreciate how many things religion got right via millennia of accumulated human experience. And a nice thing about knowing that meaning doesn't come from metaphysics is you don't have to subscribe to any one doctrine; you can internalize the pieces that seem true and set aside the pieces that you believe are wrong, morally or logically.

SMAAART 5y ago
> Meaning was there; I simply had to stop getting in its way. You just described the Hero's Journey (Monomyth). The end of the journey is nothing more than the return to the starting point, the world has not changed, the Hero is the one that has changed. Many people do know this, understand this, and see (their) life as a Journey; what people miss is that not everyone is a Hero. Welcome home.
physicles 5y ago
I had a very similar journey. Even after 10 years I sometimes still slip into existential despair, and the remedy is, as you said, a bit subtle: don’t outright ignore it, but also don’t attack it directly. No matter how hard you stare into the void, you will never see anything but darkness. It’s a bit like happiness: if you pursue happiness directly, you will surely fail. Instead, pursue worthy goals and care for others, and happiness will take care of itself. I also learned that, as you wrote, we can lean on human biology. If one asks, “Why should I wish to strive to make progress in life and keep living?” the a suitable answer is simply “Because I’m human and that’s how I’m wired.”

pizza 5y ago

Is it even meaningful to say that the universe - everything - has an entropy? Isn't it not even meaningful to talk about the entropy of something that is in a non-equilibriated state? People point to experiments about gas particles bouncing off the walls of closed boxes to prove how entropy is always increasing, but it really makes no sense to transfer that to the whole universe. I have been much more convinced that the universe, starting from a maximally structured configuration, tends to even greater structure, as Julian Barbour wrote about in the Janus Point. Structure emergence, as opposed to catastrophic mixing. My perspective used to be like yours but it has become: the game is only starting.

alisonkisk 5y ago
How can there be greater than maximal structure?
- pizza 5y ago
  I might have messed up that wording.. basically as I understand it the universe started out pretty much homogeneous and uniform, minor deviations became magnified into seeding the structure that exists today, and basically some mix of inflation + gravitation will create additional structure forever, as measured by a value called the "shape potential" C = l_rms/l_mhl of a spatial configuration of particles [0]. l_rms is the root-mean-square length of the system and l_mhl is the mean-harmonic-length. He makes this argument that there are many potential geometric configurations that the universe could have started out as but he believes it started from the one that has the maximum shape potential, iirc. [0] https://physics.aps.org/featured-article-pdf/10.1103/PhysRevLett.113.181101 https://physics.aps.org/featured-article-pdf/10.1103/PhysRev...
bengarrr 5y ago
Entropy IS always increasing. Water is always gonna flow downhill. Its not possible to go from maximally ordered to even more ordered, except in some kind of highly localized phenomena. But it is possible that it can return to that maximally ordered state after it reaches a maximally unordered state. This is the idea Roger Penrose has for the big bang is that it is the state of the universe immediately succeeding the heat death of the universe, at a certain point maximally unordered and maximally ordered can look the same, at least mathematically.

handrous 5y ago

> For me and a friend, we'd joke about our existential despair. "What's wrong?" "The Void" The "vacuum the rug" comic went over well in my social group. https://imgur.com/d9KdAvH https://imgur.com/d9KdAvH And so did a certain look into Mister Peanutbutter's inner life, which re-contextualized some things, after seasons of his being a goofy and dopey character (though, very occasionally, and tellingly, not—also, thematic/character spoiler warning for Bojack Horseman, I guess?): "The universe is a cruel, uncaring void. The key to being happy isn't a search for meaning. It's to just keep yourself busy with unimportant nonsense, and eventually, you'll be dead." And of course there's Frost's "Maple", which, for me, always comes to mind when "meaning" is the topic: http://famouspoetsandpoems.com/poets/robert_frost/poems/731 http://famouspoetsandpoems.com/poets/robert_frost/poems/731

johnchristopher 5y ago

> Hwæt! The Universe might be meaningless, these nihilistic Viking ghosts whispered to me, across the centuries. Live bravely, do not allow yourself to wallow in despair while entropy gathers itself. Make meaning, fight, build, love, stay healthy right in the face of the Uncaring Void. It's the only thing you can do. Entropy will win. Until then, make it meaningful. Those vikings are more existentialist than nihilistic to me ^^.

rendall 5y ago
Their answer to existential questions was to throw their lives away slaughtering each other and innocents in battle, so they could drink mead in Valhalla until the Final Battle. The question is Existential. Their answer was nihilist.
- johnchristopher 5y ago
  Agree to disagree ? > The fact that Vikings chose to create meaning by slaughtering their unfortunate neighbors is a bit beside the point. Nihilism is specifically about the idea that there is no meaning and no will to create some. Creating meaning, seeking it, is the inverse of a nihilist answer. If Vikings were nihilists they would have engaged in a multitude of different activities without justifications rather than creating meaning by all fighting anyway. This fighting they do, despite the fact it won't change anything is an existentialist trait and an existentialist answer. I'd concede it's close to a philosophical suicide. I am not fluent enough in English and I remember not much from philo 101 so allow me to quote wikipedia: A pervasive theme in existentialist philosophy, however, is to persist through encounters with the absurd, as seen in Camus' The Myth of Sisyphus ("One must imagine Sisyphus happy")

bengarrr 5y ago

I was thinking about this the other day actually and I believe consciousness serves a higher purpose. If you think about it without any consciousness in the universe, nothing would ever be observed. Without consciousness the universe would just be an empty library, full of history and knowledge but with nobody there to read the books (assuming we are the only conscious life form in the universe). And that's fine I guess, the universe obviously could care less if we read its biography, but at the same time I think about how lucky it is that there is a biography to read at all. We could have been conscious beings in a universe that is truly chaotic and could never be made sense of but here we are in this nice one. That is able to be quantified and one that can be appreciated. One filled with unimaginable beauty and mystery to appreciate. Even if we have no tangible purpose, we still have the ability to observe and in a limited sense manipulate the universe around us and I think that is a highly overlooked facet of what makes being a human not completely unbearable. To me the meaning of life is to just simply to be. Butterfly affect applies here, just simply existing can have an unknowable cascade of effects that ultimately shape the story of the universe. My version is a little different: Entropy will always win. Until then, just exist and enjoy.

rendall 5y ago
Perhaps. Personally, I don't find these notions comforting. It could be that our consciousness serves a higher purpose of some sort, or it could be it is but sweet delicious nectar for hungry entities, and we are but fodder. My philosophy must allow for either and neither.

SkyMarshal 5y ago

What you’ve described is pretty close to Optimistic Nihilism, eg “The universe has no intrinsic meaning, so I’ll make my own.” https://duckduckgo.com/?q=optimistic%20nihilism https://duckduckgo.com/?q=optimistic%20nihilism

rendall 5y ago
Thanks. I'd love to know more about it

Xc43 5y ago

Faith: patience with mystery You and I are not much different. The difference I chose to believe because I know we humans are story machines. I prefer being part of a story, as co-author than author of my own pointless story. That is all. What allows me to say "Jesus is my Lord and Savior" is my patience, my faith. I do not know more than you. But I like the story that Jesus started and am willing to be part of it at a personal cost. It is better than nothing.

rendall 5y ago
I'm afraid I cannot frame this question in a way that does not sound judgmental, and for that I am sincerely sorry. I'm genuinely curious why you would pick an arbitrary story out of the infinite multitudes and "choose to believe it" as a way to combat existential despair. It would be as if I, gaining some comfort hearing about Ragnarok, "chose to believe" that Odin literally exists and somewhere there is a bifrost bridge I could visit. Can't you like the story and gain value out of it without also believing in its literal truth?
- Xc43 5y ago
  Choosing to believe is mainly suspending disbelief. Or patience with mystery. Forever. The more patience, the greater faith. Liking a story is not sufficient to benefit significantly from it. In other words, to have skin in the game makes you gain more. The story you contribute to does not matter until you have faith. When you have faith, in any thing, you enjoy conviction, certainty. Conviction is intrinsically valuable. What if I had the proof your life is very valuable to Humanity? Would you live differently?... This is the sort of proof and subsequent gain faith gives. While, sure you can gain something out of liking a story, but the gain is lesser, the lesser your faith in said story. I choose Jesus' story because I chose him in the past and so far have been rewarded for my decision. I informed myself about other stories when I was openly atheist, out of curiosity. I did not think I could make a fully informed decision about this so I went with was closest. Since learning more about it and other stories, I believe, this is the best non disproven story. So I sacrifice myself to it. It is a pro-humanity story. Integrity. Joy. Anti-mimesis (yes, René Girard is part of the picture). Those are very tangible gains. It is not about being the greatest or being obedient. At its core, it is the story self-sacrifice/service for the benefit everyone, yourself included. There is only one piece of advice I dare give atheists: intentionally have faith in something. See where that leads you. There is only so many stories that rings true to a human being throughout their whole life and that of their progeny, I believe Christianity is one of them if not the only one.

alfor 5y ago

There might not be meaning to the universe, but there is meaning in the human enterprise. We went from animals, to highly effective and conscious of ourselves and the universe. The human developpement keep pushing forward. I think that the main cause of meaninglessness is our rejection of our own culture ( mostly Christian). There is good reason to reject them as the bearded magician in the sky seem stupid to a modern science minded person, however if you look at those stories at a second degree there is a lot of parts that make sense. Theses stories were the bedrock of our civilisation and the spine of our consciousness. We need to update theses stories with what we now know instead of throwing them out because science make them look outdated. Take a look at Jordan Peterson biblical series, it explain in evolutionary terms how we invented theses stories, what they mean, what we can learn from them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-wWBGo6a2w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-wWBGo6a2w

rendall 5y ago
Not sure why you're getting downvoted, but I do appreciate your response. Sure, as metaphors and origin stories and cultural touchstones, they're worth knowing more about. But thinking these tales as literal truth is... not helpful to address existential angst. Not to someone like me, anyway. Not one among those stories explicitly says "Yes, the Universe might indeed have no meaning. That observation is valid, rational and sane. Given that, here's how to handle it..." They are all, to the last, have faith, my child, accept this {patent absurdity}, and that will save you from {other patent absurdity} I'm not really convinced of the Jungian framework, but I do get a kick out of it. It's a hell of a lot of fun.
- alfor 5y ago
  I think that everything Christian or from Peterson get downvoted in this left leaning place, they are seen as backward or even evil. Theses stories made me realize that we are part of millennia of human understanding evolution. To me there is sometime a deeper meaning at a second level but I have to get past a first reaction of disdain that i got from all things Christian. We are more open to other culture religions as we don’t know their flaws as well. Jung is still opaque to me.

acituan 5y ago

> Any philosophy that just asserted that the Universe has meaning was a non-starter, for me. > Humans create meaning in the face of an uncaring, indifferent Void. I hope you realize that your assertion, which asserts a complete lack of meaning, is just as strong as the philosophies that assert meaning. To me, both are non-starters. To make progress one has to question the framing of the problem, which is actually what most of the continental philosophy enlightenment onwards was about. Maybe meaning already requires consciousness that looks out at the world, so it would be a contradiction to claim the things in themselves has meaning. (subjective) Or maybe there is meaning in things themselves, but there is an intelligibility problem and we can't have a sufficiently comprehensive representation of it internally. (objective). Think it as the model file not fitting a single machine. Or maybe meaning is a process that requires both the conscious looker and a meaning in things themselves, and is dynamically loaded. (neither subjective nor objective). It can still be constrained by cognitive capacity or intelligibility, but maybe we're doing a pretty good job at it nonetheless because we are able to conform to reality in an adaptive manner, and survive better than any other species with our modeling. Also we have been coming up with technologies to beef us up on the intelligibility and capacity fronts; like invention of literacy! So maybe existential depression is a mere stuckness in a local minima of this meaning making process between the conscious looker and objective reality, in no small part thanks to our current philosophical and other institutions really sucking at training us on the dynamic loading process. Nor we have the supporting education to leverage the collective intelligence of the best of the humanity (remember, we've invented literacy, but what is the use if we don't read the most important stuff on this matter?). Without these constraints addressed, "there is definitely no meaning" sounds to me like giving up on looking for one's keys because they are tired and don't feel like they have made any progress. I am not saying there are definitely keys either, but it is a worthy endeavor to try getting better at looking for it at least.

AnimalMuppet 5y ago
> So maybe existential depression is a mere stuckness in a local minima of this meaning making process between the conscious looker and objective reality, in no small part thanks to our current philosophical and other institutions really sucking at training us on the dynamic loading process. There are multiple philosophical schools in operation, and they each want to unload what the others have dynamically loaded.

rubicon33 5y ago

Thank you for sharing this! I’ve wrestled with existential questions my whole life. This is one of the best explanations for our existence that I’ve seen. Simple, and meaningful. I also love that this explanation also gives you a framework to live by. Meaning and purpose are arbitrary, but that’s really the value in them. You choose to make your life valuable. Would you really want it any other way?

rendall 5y ago
So glad it helped! Before that course, existential despair was nearly constant, from 10 years old through my 20s, and for much the same reasons for me as for the article writer. What is this world, where adults talk about high-minded principles but then act reprehensibly in the shadows? What are principles even for, then? Why are we here? Why am I here? Anyone?
- rubicon33 5y ago
  Would you mind sharing that course? I’ve very interested in learning more.
  - rendall 5y ago
    It was 20 years ago, and the lecturer was a Vietnam Vet in his spry 60s, named Robert Milgram. I just looked at the faculty list and he is no longer there. It was a "Medieval English Literature" course that started with a long-assed tangent about the "Germanic peoples" and the Vikings, and all of that about Ragnarok and the Norse worldview was delivered by lecture over the course of several weeks. I haven't ever been able to verify my particular understanding of their worldview, but I understand that it changed quite a bit after Christianity got a foothold. All that about rebirth and renewal after Ragnarok was a later addition. Or, my lecturer could have been mistaken, but I doubt it. I wish I could be more helpful, but he did mention Tolkien as a Norse scholar quite a lot.
    - rubicon33 5y ago
      Fascinating stuff. I appreciate the threads to follow. I’ll see what I can dig up.

pmoriarty 5y ago

"Any philosophy that just asserted that the Universe has meaning was a non-starter, for me. There is nothing that I can see that unambiguously tells me that the Universe ultimately has absolute purpose or meaning. It could, but anyone who tells you they know the fundamental question of why we are here is delusional or a liar." For Victor Frankl the meaning of life is not an answer you find out in the world but a question the world asks of you, and which you answer in the way you live your life.

tartoran 5y ago
Whenever I feel a hopeless meaningless in my life, Victor Frankl comes to rescue and I reorient my thoughts on the meaning of life, of our lives. The fact that the universe has no meaning does not imply that life cannot be filled with a meaning and fullfill that.
saiya-jin 5y ago
I guess that's about it for the topic, anything else are just speculative farts in the wind. The problem is, tons of people despair for a guidance. A bulletproof manual so they don't have to face uncertainties that life brings daily, and do hard moral choices. And what you state, no matter how correct or not, is simply not enough for them. It still scares the shit out of them. Thus, relatively independent formation of various religions that directly or indirectly address this existential question #1 and much more. Its funny how at the end almost all say the same 'be good, don't do evil, and you shall be rewarded'. I do honestly believe that if a person was 'indoctrinated' into religion in their young age, abandoning it completely in later life is extremely hard and impossible for many (ie due to environment they live in, like cigarettes). I can see it in my circle of friends. It would create hole so big in their core personality that they would fall apart like house of cards when first hardship comes. And eventually they always will.

ajb 5y ago

"One of the most potent elements in that fusion is the Northern courage: the theory of courage, which is the great contribution of early Northern literature. This is not a military judgement. I am not asserting that, if the Trojans could have employed a Northern king and his companions, they would have driven Agamemnon and Achilles into the sea, more decisively than the Greek hexameter routs the alliterative line—though it is not improbable. I refer rather to the central position the creed of unyielding will holds in the North. With due reserve we may turn to the tradition of pagan imagination as it survived in Icelandic. Of English pre-Christian mythology we know practically nothing. But the fundamentally similar heroic temper of ancient England and Scandinavia cannot have been founded on (or perhaps rather, cannot have generated) mythologies divergent on this essential point. 'The Northern Gods', Ker said, 'have an exultant extravagance in their warfare which makes them more like Titans than Olympians; only they are on the right side, though it is not the side that wins. The winning side is Chaos and Unreason'—mythologically, the monsters—'but the gods, who are defeated, think that defeat no refutation.' And in their war men are their chosen allies, able when heroic to share in this 'absolute resistance, perfect because without hope'. " -- Tolkien, "The Monsters and the Critics"