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> I’m not sure that that is a reasonable test of how the program typically behaves. That's not what people care about, people care about their copyright being

by hmfrh 5y ago

> I’m not sure that that is a reasonable test of how the program typically behaves. That's not what people care about, people care about their copyright being blatantly violated by a massive corporation _without any consequences_.

emodendroket 5y ago
Ok, but is “I can go out of my way to make it misbehave” adequate proof that the copyright is being violated?
- ghoward 5y ago
  Not GP. Yes, it is, because that means that the algorithm will produce that copyrighted code regardless of the intent of the person who makes it misbehave. People could both accidentally and "accidentally" make it reproduce copyrighted code. In the first case, it's unintentional. In the second, how could you prove it's intentional? Because of this whole mess, I am actually adding clauses to FOSS licenses that I am writing, just to ensure that my copyright on my code is not infringed by code laundering.
  - rndgermandude 5y ago
    >I am actually adding clauses to FOSS licenses that I am writing Doesn't this make your new licenses incompatible to a lot of existing licenses?
    - wizzwizz4 5y ago
      Not necessarily. If you do it right, you've got a perfectly GPL-compatible license (because such laundering is, technically, a violation of the GPL… probably) – it's just a license that's more explicit about what's a license violation. Law isn't code.
      - heavyset_go 5y ago
        GPL code and its derivatives can't be distributed with additional restrictions.
      - hnfong 5y ago
        GPL explicitly forbids re-licensing under more restrictive terms. So either the added terms are not more restrictive, which basically means they are unnecessary and have no real effect; or they are more restrictive, which is incompatible with the GPL. You can't have things go both ways. It seems that your argument is "we're not adding restrictions, we're just saying what we think Copyright law / the GPL should actually be like." But unfortunately you can't "clarify" Copyright Law or "clarify" the GPL by adding terms. Ultimately courts decide that. (Of course, if somehow your "clarification" happens to align with a court decision, then maybe it will work after all. But in theory your "clarification" is still not necessary and has no additional effect....)
        wizzwizz4 5y ago
        > But in theory your "clarification" is still not necessary and has no additional effect.... Except your clarification will be interpreted by a court of law. “This license is compatible with the GPL and I can interpret the GPL in a way that lets me do something this license says I can't” is much less likely to stand than “well maybe the author thought the GPL said this, but it actually says my interpretation”. This, of course, presumes that such a license is actually compatible with the GPL, something I'm getting less and less certain of over time. (What constitutes a compiled form? If a predictive model doesn't count – which it might not, since it outputs source code, very much unlike how compiled programs normally work – then my argument falls down. And many other things would also knock the argument down; I'm not confident enough that all my assumptions are right, or that they should be right.)
    - ghoward 5y ago
      wizzwizz4 is correct. Also, I have explicit clauses saying that GPL/AGPL dominate. But yes, my licenses may be incompatible (one-way) with permissive licenses. I say "one-way" because code with permissive licenses can still be used in code under my licenses, but maybe not necessarily the other way around. I'm okay with that.
      - rndgermandude 5y ago
        That does not really ring true to me. AGPL broadens the scope of violations as well, and you cannot use AGPL code in GPL-only code bases without turning the end product AGPL (but you can use GPL-only code in AGPL code bases). If you're just adding something along the lines of "copying passages extensive enough to reach originality is a violation of this license" then that's indeed already covered by the GPL, and there is really no need to add such a passage other than to be more explicit - and confuse people at least at first about why your license is not actually the GPL. So there isn't much of a point to do it in the first place, in my humble opinion. If you add text that says something along the lines of "you may not use this code as training data", then you created an incompatible license, and your code cannot be used in GPL code bases, and even worse, since it restricts what you can do with the code more than the GPL, it might even mean you stop being reverse-compatible and may not use GPL'ed code yourself in your own custom-license code base. The AGPL does not further restrict code uses, just broadens the scope of when you have to make available the code, so it's fine there. However, the original BSD license with the advertising clause is considered incompatible with the GPL. I am not a lawyer, and these are just my quick layman concerns. I fully recognize you're entitled to use whatever license you find suitable for your code and I am absolutely not entitled to your code and work whatsoever. But that said, I wouldn't touch your code if I saw a "potentially problematic" custom license, and I wouldn't consider contributing to your projects either.
        ghoward 5y ago
        I understand your concerns. Honestly, with this whole debacle, I am not going to be accepting outside contributions anyway. I also understand the concern with a problematic license. However, I don't plan to make a specific exemption about machine learning, but rather tie up an ambiguity. What I think I'll do is that the license will require that when the licensed source code is used, partially or fully, as an input to an algorithm, the license terms must be distributed with the output of that algorithm. I don't think this is a violation of the GPL at all because the GPL requires you to distribute the license with the binary code of GPL'ed code, and such binary code is the output of an algorithm (the compiler) whose input was the source code. But what it would do is put the onus on GitHub that, if they used my code in training that data, if they distributed the results (as they are doing), they must distribute my license terms as well and tell users that some of the results are under those terms.
  - emodendroket 5y ago
    To be clear, my suspicion is that this is so unlikely to happen unintentionally that it does not represent a real risk. If the issue is that I can force it to generate infringing output if I really want to, it is an argument against the Web browser too, since I could just as easily use the copyright-unsafe "copy" feature.
    - ghoward 5y ago
      I don't entirely agree. Whereas using the browser's copy feature requires the user to have intent to use it, getting Copilot to produce exact code does not. And proving that intent is not easy. I think companies will see that such code can be exactly reproduced and decide to stay away from Copilot. I hope they do. In fact, I am less willing to take outside contributions for my own code, even for bug fixes, just because of the risk that that code came from Copilot.
      - emodendroket 5y ago
        That makes sense if you ignore the idea that such a thing would seem unlikely to happen without intent, which was the key thing in the post you’re replying to.
        ghoward 5y ago
        Unlikely stuff will always happen with enough use. There are billions of lines of code in the world. There will be enough copyright violations. Even on single multi-million line codebases, there will be violations.
  - breakfastduck 5y ago
    How long does it have to be for you to consider it copyrighted code? For example, a book could be copyrighted, but they certainly cannot sue me because a book i wrote contains a sentence that is the same.
    - ghoward 5y ago
      The answer to your first question is for the courts to decide, unfortunately. However, for my purposes, using a new license with particular terms would only be to make companies like GitHub pause and think before using my code as "training" to an "algorithm" like Copilot.
  - b3morales 5y ago
    I'm not at all in favor of the "code laundering" (which is a brilliant term, thank you). But I don't understand how you expect a new license to help. 1. A license applied to source code is effective because of your copyright 2. The claim of Copilot's maintainers is that it bypasses copyright Therefore, they will assert that they can ignore the new license saying "you may not launder my code" just as surely as they can ignore the previous license.
    - ghoward 5y ago
      First, I did not come up with the term "code laundering." I cannot claim credit for that; I saw it first on HN on https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27729209 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27729209 somewhere. Second, you are correct that Copilot's maintainers claim that it bypasses copyright, but if it does while producing exact copies of code, then copyright is dead, and there are a lot of big companies out there with deep pockets that will ensure that doesn't happen. They may claim that because their algorithm is a black box, that whatever it produces has no copyright, but my licenses will push back directly on that claim by saying that if source code under the license is used as all or part of the inputs to an algorithm, whether all of the source code or partially, then the license terms must be attached to the output. After all, that's what we do with GPL and binary code. The binary code is the output of an algorithm (the compiler) whose input was the source code. I hope by tying it together like that, the terms can close the loophole they are claiming. But of course, I am going to get a lawyer to help me with those licenses.
      - ipaddr 5y ago
        Can you add fines?
        ghoward 5y ago
        I wish. I just want users to know what rights they have. Ultimately, I want my software to serve end users, not companies. If companies add value for users with my software, that's exactly what I want. But stripping licenses away so that users can't know what rights they have with my code is not that.
- formerly_proven 5y ago
  Double standards ensue. Tool that could be used to violate copyright := Gets prosecuted by MPAA and friends, legislation is passed to make use / development / distribution of such tools illegal Bigcorp ships the ML equivalent of ALLCODE.tgz, but you actually gotta look in the no/dont/open/this/folder/gplviolations/quake.c folder := Is this adequate proof that copyright is being violated?
  - emodendroket 5y ago
    Since I do not work for the MPAA, I don't see why you expect me to answer for them. Half of the article's argument is that any argument you could use to shut down Copilot would also give a lot of power to such entities if it were accepted.
TeMPOraL 5y ago
Honestly, I feel most people don't care about that. What they do care about, is the risk of Copilot making the user liable for copyright infringement. Even a possibility of it spewing out non-public-domain code should be considered a showstopper for any use of Copilot-generated code in a commercial project. Can Copilot produce licensed code verbatim, in enough quantities to matter, with a license your business would be infringing? Yes. Can you easily tell by looking at the output? No. Could someone end up suing you over it? Maybe, if they cared enough to find out. Can you honestly tell your investors, or a company you seek to be acquired by, that nobody else can have valid copyright claim against your code? No.
- emodendroket 5y ago
  > Can Copilot produce licensed code verbatim, in enough quantities to matter, with a license your business would be infringing? Yes. Can you easily tell by looking at the output? No. Could someone end up suing you over it? Maybe, if they cared enough to find out. Can you honestly tell your investors, or a company you seek to be acquired by, that nobody else can have valid copyright claim against your code? No. Well aren't all your assertions exactly the point of contention?
  - TeMPOraL 5y ago
    Well, the "enough quantities to matter" part wasn't tested in courts yet, but I fail to see a way to rule for "No" here in a way that wouldn't gift us an universal way to turn any code into public domain, destroying source code licensing as a concept. Other than this part, the first two claims have already been demonstrated, and the rest follow from them.
    - emodendroket 5y ago
      But that is in fact the most fundamental question here. And I’m not fully sold on the idea either that this is going to happen in real-world usage or that a single function in a massive program constitutes a large enough portion to be infringing.

by hmfrh 5y ago

emodendroket 5y ago

Ok, but is “I can go out of my way to make it misbehave” adequate proof that the copyright is being violated?

ghoward 5y ago
Not GP. Yes, it is, because that means that the algorithm will produce that copyrighted code regardless of the intent of the person who makes it misbehave. People could both accidentally and "accidentally" make it reproduce copyrighted code. In the first case, it's unintentional. In the second, how could you prove it's intentional? Because of this whole mess, I am actually adding clauses to FOSS licenses that I am writing, just to ensure that my copyright on my code is not infringed by code laundering.
- rndgermandude 5y ago
  >I am actually adding clauses to FOSS licenses that I am writing Doesn't this make your new licenses incompatible to a lot of existing licenses?
  - wizzwizz4 5y ago
    Not necessarily. If you do it right, you've got a perfectly GPL-compatible license (because such laundering is, technically, a violation of the GPL… probably) – it's just a license that's more explicit about what's a license violation. Law isn't code.
    - heavyset_go 5y ago
      GPL code and its derivatives can't be distributed with additional restrictions.
    - hnfong 5y ago
      GPL explicitly forbids re-licensing under more restrictive terms. So either the added terms are not more restrictive, which basically means they are unnecessary and have no real effect; or they are more restrictive, which is incompatible with the GPL. You can't have things go both ways. It seems that your argument is "we're not adding restrictions, we're just saying what we think Copyright law / the GPL should actually be like." But unfortunately you can't "clarify" Copyright Law or "clarify" the GPL by adding terms. Ultimately courts decide that. (Of course, if somehow your "clarification" happens to align with a court decision, then maybe it will work after all. But in theory your "clarification" is still not necessary and has no additional effect....)
      - wizzwizz4 5y ago
        > But in theory your "clarification" is still not necessary and has no additional effect.... Except your clarification will be interpreted by a court of law. “This license is compatible with the GPL and I can interpret the GPL in a way that lets me do something this license says I can't” is much less likely to stand than “well maybe the author thought the GPL said this, but it actually says my interpretation”. This, of course, presumes that such a license is actually compatible with the GPL, something I'm getting less and less certain of over time. (What constitutes a compiled form? If a predictive model doesn't count – which it might not, since it outputs source code, very much unlike how compiled programs normally work – then my argument falls down. And many other things would also knock the argument down; I'm not confident enough that all my assumptions are right, or that they should be right.)
  - ghoward 5y ago
    wizzwizz4 is correct. Also, I have explicit clauses saying that GPL/AGPL dominate. But yes, my licenses may be incompatible (one-way) with permissive licenses. I say "one-way" because code with permissive licenses can still be used in code under my licenses, but maybe not necessarily the other way around. I'm okay with that.
    - rndgermandude 5y ago
      That does not really ring true to me. AGPL broadens the scope of violations as well, and you cannot use AGPL code in GPL-only code bases without turning the end product AGPL (but you can use GPL-only code in AGPL code bases). If you're just adding something along the lines of "copying passages extensive enough to reach originality is a violation of this license" then that's indeed already covered by the GPL, and there is really no need to add such a passage other than to be more explicit - and confuse people at least at first about why your license is not actually the GPL. So there isn't much of a point to do it in the first place, in my humble opinion. If you add text that says something along the lines of "you may not use this code as training data", then you created an incompatible license, and your code cannot be used in GPL code bases, and even worse, since it restricts what you can do with the code more than the GPL, it might even mean you stop being reverse-compatible and may not use GPL'ed code yourself in your own custom-license code base. The AGPL does not further restrict code uses, just broadens the scope of when you have to make available the code, so it's fine there. However, the original BSD license with the advertising clause is considered incompatible with the GPL. I am not a lawyer, and these are just my quick layman concerns. I fully recognize you're entitled to use whatever license you find suitable for your code and I am absolutely not entitled to your code and work whatsoever. But that said, I wouldn't touch your code if I saw a "potentially problematic" custom license, and I wouldn't consider contributing to your projects either.
      - ghoward 5y ago
        I understand your concerns. Honestly, with this whole debacle, I am not going to be accepting outside contributions anyway. I also understand the concern with a problematic license. However, I don't plan to make a specific exemption about machine learning, but rather tie up an ambiguity. What I think I'll do is that the license will require that when the licensed source code is used, partially or fully, as an input to an algorithm, the license terms must be distributed with the output of that algorithm. I don't think this is a violation of the GPL at all because the GPL requires you to distribute the license with the binary code of GPL'ed code, and such binary code is the output of an algorithm (the compiler) whose input was the source code. But what it would do is put the onus on GitHub that, if they used my code in training that data, if they distributed the results (as they are doing), they must distribute my license terms as well and tell users that some of the results are under those terms.
- emodendroket 5y ago
  To be clear, my suspicion is that this is so unlikely to happen unintentionally that it does not represent a real risk. If the issue is that I can force it to generate infringing output if I really want to, it is an argument against the Web browser too, since I could just as easily use the copyright-unsafe "copy" feature.
  - ghoward 5y ago
    I don't entirely agree. Whereas using the browser's copy feature requires the user to have intent to use it, getting Copilot to produce exact code does not. And proving that intent is not easy. I think companies will see that such code can be exactly reproduced and decide to stay away from Copilot. I hope they do. In fact, I am less willing to take outside contributions for my own code, even for bug fixes, just because of the risk that that code came from Copilot.
    - emodendroket 5y ago
      That makes sense if you ignore the idea that such a thing would seem unlikely to happen without intent, which was the key thing in the post you’re replying to.
      - ghoward 5y ago
        Unlikely stuff will always happen with enough use. There are billions of lines of code in the world. There will be enough copyright violations. Even on single multi-million line codebases, there will be violations.
- breakfastduck 5y ago
  How long does it have to be for you to consider it copyrighted code? For example, a book could be copyrighted, but they certainly cannot sue me because a book i wrote contains a sentence that is the same.
  - ghoward 5y ago
    The answer to your first question is for the courts to decide, unfortunately. However, for my purposes, using a new license with particular terms would only be to make companies like GitHub pause and think before using my code as "training" to an "algorithm" like Copilot.
- b3morales 5y ago
  I'm not at all in favor of the "code laundering" (which is a brilliant term, thank you). But I don't understand how you expect a new license to help. 1. A license applied to source code is effective because of your copyright 2. The claim of Copilot's maintainers is that it bypasses copyright Therefore, they will assert that they can ignore the new license saying "you may not launder my code" just as surely as they can ignore the previous license.
  - ghoward 5y ago
    First, I did not come up with the term "code laundering." I cannot claim credit for that; I saw it first on HN on https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27729209 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27729209 somewhere. Second, you are correct that Copilot's maintainers claim that it bypasses copyright, but if it does while producing exact copies of code, then copyright is dead, and there are a lot of big companies out there with deep pockets that will ensure that doesn't happen. They may claim that because their algorithm is a black box, that whatever it produces has no copyright, but my licenses will push back directly on that claim by saying that if source code under the license is used as all or part of the inputs to an algorithm, whether all of the source code or partially, then the license terms must be attached to the output. After all, that's what we do with GPL and binary code. The binary code is the output of an algorithm (the compiler) whose input was the source code. I hope by tying it together like that, the terms can close the loophole they are claiming. But of course, I am going to get a lawyer to help me with those licenses.
    - ipaddr 5y ago
      Can you add fines?
      - ghoward 5y ago
        I wish. I just want users to know what rights they have. Ultimately, I want my software to serve end users, not companies. If companies add value for users with my software, that's exactly what I want. But stripping licenses away so that users can't know what rights they have with my code is not that.
formerly_proven 5y ago
Double standards ensue. Tool that could be used to violate copyright := Gets prosecuted by MPAA and friends, legislation is passed to make use / development / distribution of such tools illegal Bigcorp ships the ML equivalent of ALLCODE.tgz, but you actually gotta look in the no/dont/open/this/folder/gplviolations/quake.c folder := Is this adequate proof that copyright is being violated?
- emodendroket 5y ago
  Since I do not work for the MPAA, I don't see why you expect me to answer for them. Half of the article's argument is that any argument you could use to shut down Copilot would also give a lot of power to such entities if it were accepted.

TeMPOraL 5y ago

Honestly, I feel most people don't care about that. What they do care about, is the risk of Copilot making the user liable for copyright infringement. Even a possibility of it spewing out non-public-domain code should be considered a showstopper for any use of Copilot-generated code in a commercial project. Can Copilot produce licensed code verbatim, in enough quantities to matter, with a license your business would be infringing? Yes. Can you easily tell by looking at the output? No. Could someone end up suing you over it? Maybe, if they cared enough to find out. Can you honestly tell your investors, or a company you seek to be acquired by, that nobody else can have valid copyright claim against your code? No.

emodendroket 5y ago
> Can Copilot produce licensed code verbatim, in enough quantities to matter, with a license your business would be infringing? Yes. Can you easily tell by looking at the output? No. Could someone end up suing you over it? Maybe, if they cared enough to find out. Can you honestly tell your investors, or a company you seek to be acquired by, that nobody else can have valid copyright claim against your code? No. Well aren't all your assertions exactly the point of contention?
- TeMPOraL 5y ago
  Well, the "enough quantities to matter" part wasn't tested in courts yet, but I fail to see a way to rule for "No" here in a way that wouldn't gift us an universal way to turn any code into public domain, destroying source code licensing as a concept. Other than this part, the first two claims have already been demonstrated, and the rest follow from them.
  - emodendroket 5y ago
    But that is in fact the most fundamental question here. And I’m not fully sold on the idea either that this is going to happen in real-world usage or that a single function in a massive program constitutes a large enough portion to be infringing.