6 ms·

While inefficiency is indeed a problem, I feel like a lot of people overlook the one huge pro hydrogen has over batteries, namely charging time. Of course this

While inefficiency is indeed a problem, I feel like a lot of people overlook the one huge pro hydrogen has over batteries, namely charging time. Of course this might not be important for the daily commute, or 99% of the vehicles' use. But for that remaining 1% it _is_ a huge deal. And most people buy cars to fulfill a 100% of their needs, not 99%. Now I should say, I know basically nothing about battery tech. But unless full charging time can be greatly reduced, by which I mean under 5 or at most 10 minutes, I still feel hydrogen could have the upper hand even if it is more expensive and less efficient.

epistasis 5y ago
I don't think the difference between 10 and 15 minutes is enough to cause a huge problem in those 1% of situations. There are a lot of happy EV customers that go on multi-day road trips, just as they would in a gas car, without issue. I'm one of them, and will never go back to a fuel based car. That extra five minutes on road trips is far far far less than the amount of extra time that has cars take day to day, needing to stop at gas stations rather than get plugged in at the garage. The tradeoff is hugely in EVs favor, IMHO.
- krzyk 5y ago
  > I don't think the difference between 10 and 15 minutes is enough to cause a huge problem "Charging" with gasoline is like 2 minutes. With electricity AFAIR it is more like 30 minutes (in case of fast charger or longer in case of ordinary one). The time difference is huge (e.g. if you travel with kids, every minute counts). E.g. vacation travel in Poland from south to north (very popular during vacation) takes ~8h (depending where you start), during that time I need to tank gas twice, EV would need at least 2-4 times, this would increase travel time by 1-2h.
  - eptcyka 5y ago
    I recently made a trip through Poland, and, starting with a full tank of gas, I only needed to refuel the car once. But we still made 3 stops on the way, each being longer than 30 minutes. That's plenty of time to recharge an electric car. I think the issue would be that we'd never make it if all of the cars on the road were electric - a petrol pump can service far more cars hour than a tesla super charger.
    - krzyk 5y ago
      OK, it depends on how/why you travel. E.g. I do cross-Poland travel only to get from the mountains to the sea. And I have two small children -> they best travel when they are asleep -> travel during night. My car has small tank, so I have to tank twice on the ~700km trip, and in the night it takes literally up to 3 minutes to tank and pay for it. If I would use an EV (which I would like, very much, but they are prohibitively expensive here, I mean they cost 2-3x normal car) I would probably need to tank every 200-300km, so it would make 2-3 stops that last 30 mins (and that is assuming given gas station has EV charging, if not then I would need to borrow power from someone else and do charging for ~8h from a normal wall socket). And this is considering that I use teslas superchargers, all other last longer than 30 mins. Not to mention if there is a queue to the chargers (fortunately at night it is not likely), if you have bad luck you would need to wait 30mins for the person before you and 30mins for your own charging - that makes it completely unsable for anyone.
- drewg123 5y ago
  I've taken multiple ~1000mi road trips in my Tesla. Charging typically adds ~2 hours to such a trip (14hrs -> 16+ hrs). I'm an "eat in the car and stop only for fuel" road tripper, so a ~30-40 minute stop every ~2-3 hours is far worse than an 3-5min stop every 4-5 hours. What's especially frustrating is what happens when I arrive at my destination, where I don't have access to charging and the nearest Tesla supercharger is an "urban" charger with 72Kw max. I'll typically pull into that charger between 1 and 2am and spend nearly an hour there to get the car up to 80% so that I have a charge for trips during the week. The last thing I want to be doing then is sitting in an empty parking garage, waiting for my car to charge when I just want to get some sleep in my bed. I'd love to have a quick refueling option.
  - jsight 5y ago
    I know what you mean there. Destination charging is currently the biggest weakness in the EV world, IMO. I'd love for every hotel and tourist destination to have L2 charging.
    - drewg123 5y ago
      The most frustrating thing is that my destination is a friend's urban condo. They share a parking garage and valet with a hotel. There are destination chargers, and the valet will charge your car for you. But only if you're a hotel guest; the chargers are not available to condo residents.
      - jsight 5y ago
        IMO, this is why it is important to make billing more common. It doesn't make sense to keep them from the condo users if they could generate revenue from them. I feel like the risk of freeloaders keeps hotels from installing more of them too.
theluketaylor 5y ago
For passenger vehicle road trips charging time is already into "doesn't matter" territory for a number of models. I have taken a 1000 km+ trip in a BEV that I used to take in gas vehicles. We didn't have to stop more often or stay any longer than we would have with gasoline. Really think about the time you spend stationary when stopping for fuel on a road trip. It's not just pumping fuel, you also go to the bathroom, get some food, and stretch your legs. Extremely fast charging a Tesla trick, Hyundai Ionic 5 (starting around 45K before incentives) can charge 10-80% in 18 minutes, which is enough to travel around 330 km. That's roughly 3 hours of driving in most counties. I could see hydrogen making sense for fleets with local operation that need to be operated nearly 24x7, like the support vehicles at an airport, city busses, and taxis in cities with strong night life. It also makes sense for heavy industry. Doesn't make sense for passenger vehicles; the cost of batteries has crashed too far and the power grid is way too ubiquitous.
- aidenn0 5y ago
  It definitely takes longer west of the Mississippi river in the US. Mountains with 80MPH (130 km/h) speed limits mean the range is far shorter than typical freeway diving, which makes the fact that you need to stop more often, and for longer (gas cars have a typical 330 mile range, 1 l.6 longer than that Ionic), really add up. [edit] I will soon be diving 1600km. Google suggests the route will take 14h. I expect to make it in 15. Friends with Teslas suggest it would take nearly 20.
  - wazoox 5y ago
    Driving at the fastest allowed speed for long duration isn't a good bet with BEV. Usually you'll get shorter trip time by driving at 110km/h and skipping a charge.
    - theluketaylor 5y ago
      It depends on the charge curve for the car. For the fastest charging cars it's better to keep the battery in the bottom half (where it charges faster) and charge more often in very short stints.
bzzzt 5y ago
Because hydrogen has to be pumped at 700 bar there's a delay when the pump buffer has to be recompressed. This will happen after 1 or 2 cars have filled up, the third will have to wait for 20-30 minutes. Not that different from charging an EV...
jsight 5y ago
You aren't wrong, but it still leaves Hydrogen in a weird place in the market. With gasoline, you have to go weekly for your regularly commute. It can be annoying, but the upside is that you only have to stop for 5 minutes on a long trip! With EVs, you just charge at home or the office which is really convenient. But the downside, is that those 5 minute stops become 25+ minute stops and you typically have at least 1 more of them. On top of that, the locations aren't as prevalent which increases planning needs. With Hydrogen, you get the negative of weekly stopping, the negative of fewer locations, and the only benefit is that it can be refilled... almost as well as a gasoline for about the same $$. So why would I choose hydrogen over either other choice?
- theshrike79 5y ago
  The Toyota Mirai consumes about 1kg of hydrogen per 100km. In Germany, the government subsidised price for hydrogen is 9.50€/kg. That’s expensive as all hell. With hydrogen you get: fast refuels (if the station has pressurized itself after the last customer), good range, but the cost is redonculous and the distribution is nonexistent in most countries. There are more Teslas in space than there are publicly available hydrogen refueling stations in Finland :D
pcurve 5y ago
By law you have to take 30minute break after 8 hours. And you cannot drive more than 14 hours per day. Iirc Tesla semi can get 400mi from 30 minute. If they can up that figure to 600, then fuel cells range and competitive advantages diminish greatly. But when you have near autonomous truck that runs closer to 24 hours per day or have a co driver in cab splitting duty then fuel cell will have an edge
ortusdux 5y ago
Tesla did have quick (90s) battery swap capabilities, but it has been abandoned. I would imagine the logistics of managing the batteries would be a headache considering they degrade with use and represent ~1/3rd of the value of car. My best guess is that it was a precaution in case battery longevity was worse than expected. That, or it was solely a way to get several hundred million in tax credits from California. If production ever hits a point where it is not battery supply constrained, I could see tesla offering a battery insurance pool system with swapping capabilities, were they pull any pack under ~85% capacity and turn it into a power wall. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0-sHtlCZ7M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0-sHtlCZ7M https://insideevs.com/news/329836/tesla-battery-swap-location-shut-down-for-now/ https://insideevs.com/news/329836/tesla-battery-swap-locatio... https://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In-Gear/2015/0312/Tesla-battery-swapping-useful-service-or-tax-credit-ploy https://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In-Gear/2015/0312/Tesla-b...
giobox 5y ago
Have you seen a hydrogen pump in real life? While yes, it can be faster than a 20 minute fast charge, it is a significantly more complex process than gasoline - it doesn’t just pour out the end of a hose as a stable liquid. I actually think a lot of people will prefer a 10-20 min fast charge on a BEV (I certainly do). Due to the volatile nature of hydrogen I can’t imagine many places will let you run to the toilet or get a coffee while pumping either; these are all just fine to do with fast charging. For me the choice between BEV and the alternates is more about availability of home charging - if you can wake up each day with reliably ~250 miles of range already in the car, you virtually never need to fill up/charge on the road anyway!
mullingitover 5y ago
> Of course this might not be important for the daily commute, or 99% of the vehicles' use. But for that remaining 1% it _is_ a huge deal. That 1% use case should be priced for the externalities. I'd like to see electric vehicle purchases heavily subsidized by taxes on fossil fuel vehicles and taxes on gasoline. If you really need to pollute 100% of the time you're operating your vehicle just in case you need that extra 1%, it should be priced in a way that really makes you think hard about that 1% scenario and whether there are really no alternatives.

epistasis 5y ago

I don't think the difference between 10 and 15 minutes is enough to cause a huge problem in those 1% of situations. There are a lot of happy EV customers that go on multi-day road trips, just as they would in a gas car, without issue. I'm one of them, and will never go back to a fuel based car. That extra five minutes on road trips is far far far less than the amount of extra time that has cars take day to day, needing to stop at gas stations rather than get plugged in at the garage. The tradeoff is hugely in EVs favor, IMHO.

krzyk 5y ago
> I don't think the difference between 10 and 15 minutes is enough to cause a huge problem "Charging" with gasoline is like 2 minutes. With electricity AFAIR it is more like 30 minutes (in case of fast charger or longer in case of ordinary one). The time difference is huge (e.g. if you travel with kids, every minute counts). E.g. vacation travel in Poland from south to north (very popular during vacation) takes ~8h (depending where you start), during that time I need to tank gas twice, EV would need at least 2-4 times, this would increase travel time by 1-2h.
- eptcyka 5y ago
  I recently made a trip through Poland, and, starting with a full tank of gas, I only needed to refuel the car once. But we still made 3 stops on the way, each being longer than 30 minutes. That's plenty of time to recharge an electric car. I think the issue would be that we'd never make it if all of the cars on the road were electric - a petrol pump can service far more cars hour than a tesla super charger.
  - krzyk 5y ago
    OK, it depends on how/why you travel. E.g. I do cross-Poland travel only to get from the mountains to the sea. And I have two small children -> they best travel when they are asleep -> travel during night. My car has small tank, so I have to tank twice on the ~700km trip, and in the night it takes literally up to 3 minutes to tank and pay for it. If I would use an EV (which I would like, very much, but they are prohibitively expensive here, I mean they cost 2-3x normal car) I would probably need to tank every 200-300km, so it would make 2-3 stops that last 30 mins (and that is assuming given gas station has EV charging, if not then I would need to borrow power from someone else and do charging for ~8h from a normal wall socket). And this is considering that I use teslas superchargers, all other last longer than 30 mins. Not to mention if there is a queue to the chargers (fortunately at night it is not likely), if you have bad luck you would need to wait 30mins for the person before you and 30mins for your own charging - that makes it completely unsable for anyone.
drewg123 5y ago
I've taken multiple ~1000mi road trips in my Tesla. Charging typically adds ~2 hours to such a trip (14hrs -> 16+ hrs). I'm an "eat in the car and stop only for fuel" road tripper, so a ~30-40 minute stop every ~2-3 hours is far worse than an 3-5min stop every 4-5 hours. What's especially frustrating is what happens when I arrive at my destination, where I don't have access to charging and the nearest Tesla supercharger is an "urban" charger with 72Kw max. I'll typically pull into that charger between 1 and 2am and spend nearly an hour there to get the car up to 80% so that I have a charge for trips during the week. The last thing I want to be doing then is sitting in an empty parking garage, waiting for my car to charge when I just want to get some sleep in my bed. I'd love to have a quick refueling option.
- jsight 5y ago
  I know what you mean there. Destination charging is currently the biggest weakness in the EV world, IMO. I'd love for every hotel and tourist destination to have L2 charging.
  - drewg123 5y ago
    The most frustrating thing is that my destination is a friend's urban condo. They share a parking garage and valet with a hotel. There are destination chargers, and the valet will charge your car for you. But only if you're a hotel guest; the chargers are not available to condo residents.
    - jsight 5y ago
      IMO, this is why it is important to make billing more common. It doesn't make sense to keep them from the condo users if they could generate revenue from them. I feel like the risk of freeloaders keeps hotels from installing more of them too.

theluketaylor 5y ago

For passenger vehicle road trips charging time is already into "doesn't matter" territory for a number of models. I have taken a 1000 km+ trip in a BEV that I used to take in gas vehicles. We didn't have to stop more often or stay any longer than we would have with gasoline. Really think about the time you spend stationary when stopping for fuel on a road trip. It's not just pumping fuel, you also go to the bathroom, get some food, and stretch your legs. Extremely fast charging a Tesla trick, Hyundai Ionic 5 (starting around 45K before incentives) can charge 10-80% in 18 minutes, which is enough to travel around 330 km. That's roughly 3 hours of driving in most counties. I could see hydrogen making sense for fleets with local operation that need to be operated nearly 24x7, like the support vehicles at an airport, city busses, and taxis in cities with strong night life. It also makes sense for heavy industry. Doesn't make sense for passenger vehicles; the cost of batteries has crashed too far and the power grid is way too ubiquitous.

aidenn0 5y ago
It definitely takes longer west of the Mississippi river in the US. Mountains with 80MPH (130 km/h) speed limits mean the range is far shorter than typical freeway diving, which makes the fact that you need to stop more often, and for longer (gas cars have a typical 330 mile range, 1 l.6 longer than that Ionic), really add up. [edit] I will soon be diving 1600km. Google suggests the route will take 14h. I expect to make it in 15. Friends with Teslas suggest it would take nearly 20.
- wazoox 5y ago
  Driving at the fastest allowed speed for long duration isn't a good bet with BEV. Usually you'll get shorter trip time by driving at 110km/h and skipping a charge.
  - theluketaylor 5y ago
    It depends on the charge curve for the car. For the fastest charging cars it's better to keep the battery in the bottom half (where it charges faster) and charge more often in very short stints.

bzzzt 5y ago

Because hydrogen has to be pumped at 700 bar there's a delay when the pump buffer has to be recompressed. This will happen after 1 or 2 cars have filled up, the third will have to wait for 20-30 minutes. Not that different from charging an EV...

jsight 5y ago

You aren't wrong, but it still leaves Hydrogen in a weird place in the market. With gasoline, you have to go weekly for your regularly commute. It can be annoying, but the upside is that you only have to stop for 5 minutes on a long trip! With EVs, you just charge at home or the office which is really convenient. But the downside, is that those 5 minute stops become 25+ minute stops and you typically have at least 1 more of them. On top of that, the locations aren't as prevalent which increases planning needs. With Hydrogen, you get the negative of weekly stopping, the negative of fewer locations, and the only benefit is that it can be refilled... almost as well as a gasoline for about the same $$. So why would I choose hydrogen over either other choice?

theshrike79 5y ago
The Toyota Mirai consumes about 1kg of hydrogen per 100km. In Germany, the government subsidised price for hydrogen is 9.50€/kg. That’s expensive as all hell. With hydrogen you get: fast refuels (if the station has pressurized itself after the last customer), good range, but the cost is redonculous and the distribution is nonexistent in most countries. There are more Teslas in space than there are publicly available hydrogen refueling stations in Finland :D

pcurve 5y ago

By law you have to take 30minute break after 8 hours. And you cannot drive more than 14 hours per day. Iirc Tesla semi can get 400mi from 30 minute. If they can up that figure to 600, then fuel cells range and competitive advantages diminish greatly. But when you have near autonomous truck that runs closer to 24 hours per day or have a co driver in cab splitting duty then fuel cell will have an edge

ortusdux 5y ago

Tesla did have quick (90s) battery swap capabilities, but it has been abandoned. I would imagine the logistics of managing the batteries would be a headache considering they degrade with use and represent ~1/3rd of the value of car. My best guess is that it was a precaution in case battery longevity was worse than expected. That, or it was solely a way to get several hundred million in tax credits from California. If production ever hits a point where it is not battery supply constrained, I could see tesla offering a battery insurance pool system with swapping capabilities, were they pull any pack under ~85% capacity and turn it into a power wall. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0-sHtlCZ7M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0-sHtlCZ7M https://insideevs.com/news/329836/tesla-battery-swap-location-shut-down-for-now/ https://insideevs.com/news/329836/tesla-battery-swap-locatio... https://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In-Gear/2015/0312/Tesla-battery-swapping-useful-service-or-tax-credit-ploy https://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In-Gear/2015/0312/Tesla-b...

giobox 5y ago

Have you seen a hydrogen pump in real life? While yes, it can be faster than a 20 minute fast charge, it is a significantly more complex process than gasoline - it doesn’t just pour out the end of a hose as a stable liquid. I actually think a lot of people will prefer a 10-20 min fast charge on a BEV (I certainly do). Due to the volatile nature of hydrogen I can’t imagine many places will let you run to the toilet or get a coffee while pumping either; these are all just fine to do with fast charging. For me the choice between BEV and the alternates is more about availability of home charging - if you can wake up each day with reliably ~250 miles of range already in the car, you virtually never need to fill up/charge on the road anyway!

mullingitover 5y ago

> Of course this might not be important for the daily commute, or 99% of the vehicles' use. But for that remaining 1% it _is_ a huge deal. That 1% use case should be priced for the externalities. I'd like to see electric vehicle purchases heavily subsidized by taxes on fossil fuel vehicles and taxes on gasoline. If you really need to pollute 100% of the time you're operating your vehicle just in case you need that extra 1%, it should be priced in a way that really makes you think hard about that 1% scenario and whether there are really no alternatives.