8 ms·

A better question: Can modern movie formats mix sound such that people with two stereo speakers can actually hear the voice track?

leokennis 5y ago
This is scientifically impossible unfortunately.
thrdbndndn 5y ago
I don't think the problem is the number of speakers. Movies just have higher dynamic range where the lounder part is not suitable for home use if you adjust the volume to have the voices at "normal volume". The "problem" exists even if you have proper surround sound systems (obviously, surround sound systems would have it better due to better channel separation, but the volume issue is still there). Don't get me wrong, I agree that movies released on home media should have a mix that is more balanced (compressed) in loudness. Just that the problem isn't related to the setup of the speakers.
- maxwelldone 5y ago
  Question for people in the industry: Is it too hard to include a separate audio track that's more suitable for home use where a better emphasis is placed on dialogue?
  - lancesells 5y ago
    Not a sound engineer but that sounds like remixing and remastering a rather large percentage of the film, if not the entire thing. I think you would have to have a director really push for that expense.
  - sp332 5y ago
    Some do, the one I noticed recently is the Valerian bluray.
- mrob 5y ago
  The number of speakers is part of the problem. Reproduction of a center channel using two loudspeakers ("phantom center") is inherently flawed, because you get comb filtering between them. Unlike with headphones, both ears can hear both speakers at once, but unless you're sitting perfectly centered, the distance from them is not the same. This means the signal from one is delayed relative to the other, so you get frequency-dependent constructive and destructive interference. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comb_filter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comb_filter The effect is more noticeable in an acoustically dry room where there are few reflections filling in the notches. A real center channel eliminates this source of comb filtering.
  - sp332 5y ago
    That doesn't make any sense to me. People have been listening to mono audio sources with two speakers forever without this issue. Even if the "comb filtering" is noticeable you can still make out voices just fine.
    - mrob 5y ago
      The length of time people have been ignoring something doesn't affect if it's real or not. A phantom center channel is a cost optimization, and in many cases it's good enough, but it's also true that many people have trouble hearing dialogue in movies. Some of them will benefit from a real center channel. How much they'll benefit depends on the acoustic environment and listening position. This isn't a new idea; the very first movie with multi-channel audio used a real center channel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasound https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasound
  - mrob 5y ago
    Downvoters, it's a real thing: >The tests showed significant improvements in word recognition using a separate center loudspeaker when compared with a phantom center image between a pair of loudspeakers. https://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=14174 https://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=14174
- brokenmachine 5y ago
  I have a good 5.1 setup at home and it's still irritating. To hear the quiet parts you have to have it up loud enough that the loud parts are deafening. I don't enjoy that even/especially at the cinema. Why do they do this? I don't need to hear gunshots and explosions at full real volume. You need hearing protection when shooting for a reason.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
_trampeltier 5y ago
Make a patent now ;-)
tyingq 5y ago
I remember having to leave the theater during "Public Enemies" because I couldn't understand the dialogue. No idea if the mix was bad, or something was wrong at the theater. The volume was loud, but I couldn't make out words at all. Googling around a bit, others complained too.
- skhr0680 5y ago
  In every Michael Mann movie I can think of, the gunfire is really loud compared to everything else; I can understand wanting to show off after recording all of the gunfire in the Heat shootout for real.
- deergomoo 5y ago
  The mix is bad, I own it on Blu-Ray and it's indecipherable.
Tempest1981 5y ago
Don Lindich recently recommended a ZVOX product. I wish I could hear it first, before buying. Although this isn't solving the root-cause of the problem. > If you are willing to spend a bit more for a sure thing, ZVOX is the go-to for voice clarity and one of the most popular companies I write about. Their lines of headphones, soundbars and television speakers use their proprietary AccuVoice, based on hearing aid technology, to make dialogue clear and easy to understand. > Last year I reviewed and recommended the ZVOX AV157 Television Speaker, which includes 6 levels of AccuVoice Boost and 6 levels of SuperVoice boost > https://soundadvicenews.com/2021/05/14/cheap-soundbars-for-better-tv-sound-and-a-better-option-from-zvox-week-19-2021/ https://soundadvicenews.com/2021/05/14/cheap-soundbars-for-b...
deeblering4 5y ago
I’ve been running home theater in stereo for years and the solution I’ve found is a combination of phantom center channel level control, and adjusting the compression settings to reduce dynamics. What works for me is a passive hardware mixer in front of my 2 channel power amp. I take the line level center (mono) and main (L/R) pre-out signals from my hdmi receiver, and mix them on the passive mixer. This gives full control over the center level mix without actually having a center speaker (I have just a pair of stereo speakers) I also set dynamics to minimum to keep dialog and special fx at roughly the same volume level (instead of constantly riding the volume control during action scenes) Took some time to tune it, but I’m really happy with the setup now!
- brokenmachine 5y ago
  Can't you do this on your AVR? Most have a center level control. Does that not work with a phantom center?
  - deeblering4 5y ago
    Depends on the model afaik. On mine phantom center disables level control.

leokennis 5y ago

This is scientifically impossible unfortunately.

thrdbndndn 5y ago

I don't think the problem is the number of speakers. Movies just have higher dynamic range where the lounder part is not suitable for home use if you adjust the volume to have the voices at "normal volume". The "problem" exists even if you have proper surround sound systems (obviously, surround sound systems would have it better due to better channel separation, but the volume issue is still there). Don't get me wrong, I agree that movies released on home media should have a mix that is more balanced (compressed) in loudness. Just that the problem isn't related to the setup of the speakers.

maxwelldone 5y ago
Question for people in the industry: Is it too hard to include a separate audio track that's more suitable for home use where a better emphasis is placed on dialogue?
- lancesells 5y ago
  Not a sound engineer but that sounds like remixing and remastering a rather large percentage of the film, if not the entire thing. I think you would have to have a director really push for that expense.
- sp332 5y ago
  Some do, the one I noticed recently is the Valerian bluray.
mrob 5y ago
The number of speakers is part of the problem. Reproduction of a center channel using two loudspeakers ("phantom center") is inherently flawed, because you get comb filtering between them. Unlike with headphones, both ears can hear both speakers at once, but unless you're sitting perfectly centered, the distance from them is not the same. This means the signal from one is delayed relative to the other, so you get frequency-dependent constructive and destructive interference. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comb_filter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comb_filter The effect is more noticeable in an acoustically dry room where there are few reflections filling in the notches. A real center channel eliminates this source of comb filtering.
- sp332 5y ago
  That doesn't make any sense to me. People have been listening to mono audio sources with two speakers forever without this issue. Even if the "comb filtering" is noticeable you can still make out voices just fine.
  - mrob 5y ago
    The length of time people have been ignoring something doesn't affect if it's real or not. A phantom center channel is a cost optimization, and in many cases it's good enough, but it's also true that many people have trouble hearing dialogue in movies. Some of them will benefit from a real center channel. How much they'll benefit depends on the acoustic environment and listening position. This isn't a new idea; the very first movie with multi-channel audio used a real center channel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasound https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasound
- mrob 5y ago
  Downvoters, it's a real thing: >The tests showed significant improvements in word recognition using a separate center loudspeaker when compared with a phantom center image between a pair of loudspeakers. https://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=14174 https://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=14174
brokenmachine 5y ago
I have a good 5.1 setup at home and it's still irritating. To hear the quiet parts you have to have it up loud enough that the loud parts are deafening. I don't enjoy that even/especially at the cinema. Why do they do this? I don't need to hear gunshots and explosions at full real volume. You need hearing protection when shooting for a reason.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

_trampeltier 5y ago

Make a patent now ;-)

tyingq 5y ago

I remember having to leave the theater during "Public Enemies" because I couldn't understand the dialogue. No idea if the mix was bad, or something was wrong at the theater. The volume was loud, but I couldn't make out words at all. Googling around a bit, others complained too.

skhr0680 5y ago
In every Michael Mann movie I can think of, the gunfire is really loud compared to everything else; I can understand wanting to show off after recording all of the gunfire in the Heat shootout for real.
deergomoo 5y ago
The mix is bad, I own it on Blu-Ray and it's indecipherable.

Tempest1981 5y ago

Don Lindich recently recommended a ZVOX product. I wish I could hear it first, before buying. Although this isn't solving the root-cause of the problem. > If you are willing to spend a bit more for a sure thing, ZVOX is the go-to for voice clarity and one of the most popular companies I write about. Their lines of headphones, soundbars and television speakers use their proprietary AccuVoice, based on hearing aid technology, to make dialogue clear and easy to understand. > Last year I reviewed and recommended the ZVOX AV157 Television Speaker, which includes 6 levels of AccuVoice Boost and 6 levels of SuperVoice boost > https://soundadvicenews.com/2021/05/14/cheap-soundbars-for-better-tv-sound-and-a-better-option-from-zvox-week-19-2021/ https://soundadvicenews.com/2021/05/14/cheap-soundbars-for-b...

deeblering4 5y ago

I’ve been running home theater in stereo for years and the solution I’ve found is a combination of phantom center channel level control, and adjusting the compression settings to reduce dynamics. What works for me is a passive hardware mixer in front of my 2 channel power amp. I take the line level center (mono) and main (L/R) pre-out signals from my hdmi receiver, and mix them on the passive mixer. This gives full control over the center level mix without actually having a center speaker (I have just a pair of stereo speakers) I also set dynamics to minimum to keep dialog and special fx at roughly the same volume level (instead of constantly riding the volume control during action scenes) Took some time to tune it, but I’m really happy with the setup now!

brokenmachine 5y ago
Can't you do this on your AVR? Most have a center level control. Does that not work with a phantom center?
- deeblering4 5y ago
  Depends on the model afaik. On mine phantom center disables level control.