6 ms·

another great thing the EU is doing for us... wonderful! The bureacracy appartus works perfectly well, far away from any accountability. Its the perfect system

another great thing the EU is doing for us... wonderful! The bureacracy appartus works perfectly well, far away from any accountability. Its the perfect system actually. Let everyone fight their local nationwide politics and in the meanwhile implement those life changing things from an appartus far away.

411111111111111 5y ago
Dumb legislature is not unique to the EU, blaming them specifically is misguided. Please use arguments that arent fundamentally based on biases. There is definitely value in a European government, even if the way it's currently setup is very questionable, as the citizens have no realistic way to influence decisions on that level.
- nickpp 5y ago
  The EU is special when it comes to high-tech though. Just try to browse the web normally from inside any EU country to see how much they managed to f-up the Internet.
  - Kbelicius 5y ago
    I browse the web all day, every day from within the EU and I don't know what you are talking about.
    - nickpp 5y ago
      Never noticed that huge cookie popup smack in the middle of every single damn new website you visit huh?! Lucky you...
      - Kbelicius 5y ago
        Yea, I see those but only the first time I visit a website. Lucky you... thinking that a notice that a web page is storing data on your computer is fuckig up the internet.
        nickpp 5y ago
        Oh no, the fist and most important thing I need to know when I visit a website is not whatever reason I came there for, but if that website is saving some goddamn bits of data on my machine. It’s really my first priority! Nothing else matters until I answer the existential question if I consent or not. Nothing!
        Kbelicius 5y ago
        Oh no, a notice on web pages is fucking up the internet.... just listen to yourself. It is pathetic.
        nickpp 5y ago
        Well excuse me for having a preference on how to spend my time and what I want to do on the Internet. Did not realize how pathetic this pretension of mine was to the eyes of the wise bureaucrats in Brussels. I am so lucky they knew better and decided for me how to best start my online experience. Please accept my humble apologies. I am not worthy of your sublime attention. I am so lucky you exist and are leading me to new heights of progress and civilization. Thank you, sir.
        411111111111111 5y ago
        That's the thing with cookie banners, they're not necessary if you only use them for site specific reasons. They only become necessary if you're using something like Google analytics, which documents every action taken. The fact that almost all pages have to show them is another sad example how broken our current internet culture is. Btw, you can actually delete most banners with the ublock origin annoyances filters, that makes me forget that they exist sometimes
  - kwhitefoot 5y ago
    Perhaps you could give some examples.
  - zajio1am 5y ago
    SESTA / FOSTA laws in US?
- sc11 5y ago
  > as the citizens have no realistic way to influence decisions on that level. They could stop voting for parties/MEPs that have mass surveillance and weakening of civil rights as part of their election programs and core identities. Alas a majority of European citizens doesn't seem to care.
- mpfundstein 5y ago
  my friend. i haven't said the EU needs to go. I just stated that the whole setup is terribly wrong. anyway. it needs to go. and then its need to be re-implemented differenlty. no idea how. but not in this way.
mosselman 5y ago
It’s far too easy to regard the EU as some distant entity that doles out laws. Who is in the EU? People. People from where? The countries within the EU. Often the diplomats were politicians in their own country before going to the European Parliament. So who should you be angry at? Some make believe distant evil council, or your local parties? They are the ones sending over the people who vote on these things, you can complain locally about the policies “far away”. So I am not saying laws like these aren’t wrong, they are and it is very frustrating that wrong decisions like these might influence stuff happening in my own country, but let’s not pretend that the EU is run by aliens from some sort of Death Star. Pretending like that is the case is what makes accountability seem impossible.
- mpfundstein 5y ago
  of course its not run by aliens from some sort of death star. stop being ridiculous. i never even implied that. but the whole circus in Brussel is a huge black box bureacracy run by politicians that no one really knows. the politicans that are sent there by local parties are usually not very well known by the local populace, and even if, their doings are not really of influence on how poeple view their local parties. heck I bet 95% of voters cannot even name 5 eu politicians in the parlament and to which local party they belong to. and thats the power. the citizens are busy with national politics and in the meanwhile the death star aliens can do whatever they want. and yes. its not an unsolvable problem. people could educate themselves. all the info is there. but its a very laborous job. so maybe the media is just doing it wrong?
  - dijit 5y ago
    > and yes. its not an unsolvable problem. people could educate themselves. all the info is there. but its a very laborous job. so maybe the media is just doing it wrong? EU Parliament is by-in-large more transparent and direct than the UK one (not sure where you're from, but I'm from the UK so that's the lens I have). But you're absolutely right, for some reason the EU "feels" quite closed off, and it's almost entirely the medias fault. Media is driven on eyes, and the further away a thing is the more difficult it is to have eyes on it. It takes huge issues to get international attention, natural disasters that kill hundreds in another EU country are barely mentioned on british media. It's also very boring, so it's not surprising. But, it's actually very easy to read the EU parliamentary, commission documents, and the documentation on how all the processes work is quite clear (even if it's a bit alien on first look because you're taught your own system and have to "unlearn" that a bit first). I'd give it a go, it's not as intimidating as it first appears. But I fully agree that the media should do this, it's literally their job.
dijit 5y ago
Speaking from a UK perspective: we ke{ep,pt} sending eurosceptics to the EU because "they'll hold them to account!", and populism is surprisingly effective. The truth is usually that eurosceptics have no desire to see the EU work and they will support legislature that makes the EU look untenable, stupid and bureaucratic. I suspect this is true for other countries.
- raverbashing 5y ago
  Yeah, makes sense. But the likes of SPD are too happy to vote together with CDU on any stupid proposal
- gadders 5y ago
  When did UK eurosceptics vote for legislature like that?
  - dijit 5y ago
    Well, Farage himself has the second to lowest voting record , only beaten by Brian Crowley of Ireland who has never at all voted. I’m going to just grab a couple from my phone but I’m sure it would be easy to dig into many others, it’s not a hidden thing really but most people don’t even check who their MEPs are let alone hold them to account on voting records: Tim Aker, voted against subsidising farmers from volatility (a key impact for UKIP voter base and a campaign promise of UKIP: protecting British farmers) and voted for renegotiating to give Greece more capital: https://yourvotematters.eu/en/profile/ec/tim-aker https://yourvotematters.eu/en/profile/ec/tim-aker and Stuart Agnew, a prominent UKIP MEP has intentionally slowed things down with farcical no confidence resolutions https://www.europarl.europa.eu/meps/en/96897/JOHN+STUART_AGNEW/all-activities/motions-instit/8 https://www.europarl.europa.eu/meps/en/96897/JOHN+STUART_AGN...
chronid 5y ago
The EU commission is voted in by the EU governments. The EU council is made by the EU governments. EU citizens elect MEPs. There is no accountability because no one holds them to account and people repeat what you just wrote like gospel, including people writing for newspapers - and that has to stop. You can pressure the EU as much as you can pressure your national government, all you need to do is put the pressure on your national government. Add your MEP on top, but the national governments are enough if you don't want to go the extra step.
- mpfundstein 5y ago
  i know how the EU works. on paper its nice. but in reality, 99% of people can't even name 5 EU politicians or more than 2 EU parties (if they even can name 1) or even which national party is part of which EU party. the whole thing is a huge black box IN PRACTICE and thats why it is so powerful and uncontrolled.
  - skummetmaelk 5y ago
    And why is that? That is because national media cover only national politics in 99% of cases. The EU is only mentioned when the national politicians blame the EU for some of their own failings.

411111111111111 5y ago

Dumb legislature is not unique to the EU, blaming them specifically is misguided. Please use arguments that arent fundamentally based on biases. There is definitely value in a European government, even if the way it's currently setup is very questionable, as the citizens have no realistic way to influence decisions on that level.

nickpp 5y ago
The EU is special when it comes to high-tech though. Just try to browse the web normally from inside any EU country to see how much they managed to f-up the Internet.
- Kbelicius 5y ago
  I browse the web all day, every day from within the EU and I don't know what you are talking about.
  - nickpp 5y ago
    Never noticed that huge cookie popup smack in the middle of every single damn new website you visit huh?! Lucky you...
    - Kbelicius 5y ago
      Yea, I see those but only the first time I visit a website. Lucky you... thinking that a notice that a web page is storing data on your computer is fuckig up the internet.
      - nickpp 5y ago
        Oh no, the fist and most important thing I need to know when I visit a website is not whatever reason I came there for, but if that website is saving some goddamn bits of data on my machine. It’s really my first priority! Nothing else matters until I answer the existential question if I consent or not. Nothing!
        Kbelicius 5y ago
        Oh no, a notice on web pages is fucking up the internet.... just listen to yourself. It is pathetic.
        nickpp 5y ago
        Well excuse me for having a preference on how to spend my time and what I want to do on the Internet. Did not realize how pathetic this pretension of mine was to the eyes of the wise bureaucrats in Brussels. I am so lucky they knew better and decided for me how to best start my online experience. Please accept my humble apologies. I am not worthy of your sublime attention. I am so lucky you exist and are leading me to new heights of progress and civilization. Thank you, sir.
        411111111111111 5y ago
        That's the thing with cookie banners, they're not necessary if you only use them for site specific reasons. They only become necessary if you're using something like Google analytics, which documents every action taken. The fact that almost all pages have to show them is another sad example how broken our current internet culture is. Btw, you can actually delete most banners with the ublock origin annoyances filters, that makes me forget that they exist sometimes
- kwhitefoot 5y ago
  Perhaps you could give some examples.
- zajio1am 5y ago
  SESTA / FOSTA laws in US?
sc11 5y ago
> as the citizens have no realistic way to influence decisions on that level. They could stop voting for parties/MEPs that have mass surveillance and weakening of civil rights as part of their election programs and core identities. Alas a majority of European citizens doesn't seem to care.
mpfundstein 5y ago
my friend. i haven't said the EU needs to go. I just stated that the whole setup is terribly wrong. anyway. it needs to go. and then its need to be re-implemented differenlty. no idea how. but not in this way.

mosselman 5y ago

It’s far too easy to regard the EU as some distant entity that doles out laws. Who is in the EU? People. People from where? The countries within the EU. Often the diplomats were politicians in their own country before going to the European Parliament. So who should you be angry at? Some make believe distant evil council, or your local parties? They are the ones sending over the people who vote on these things, you can complain locally about the policies “far away”. So I am not saying laws like these aren’t wrong, they are and it is very frustrating that wrong decisions like these might influence stuff happening in my own country, but let’s not pretend that the EU is run by aliens from some sort of Death Star. Pretending like that is the case is what makes accountability seem impossible.

mpfundstein 5y ago
of course its not run by aliens from some sort of death star. stop being ridiculous. i never even implied that. but the whole circus in Brussel is a huge black box bureacracy run by politicians that no one really knows. the politicans that are sent there by local parties are usually not very well known by the local populace, and even if, their doings are not really of influence on how poeple view their local parties. heck I bet 95% of voters cannot even name 5 eu politicians in the parlament and to which local party they belong to. and thats the power. the citizens are busy with national politics and in the meanwhile the death star aliens can do whatever they want. and yes. its not an unsolvable problem. people could educate themselves. all the info is there. but its a very laborous job. so maybe the media is just doing it wrong?
- dijit 5y ago
  > and yes. its not an unsolvable problem. people could educate themselves. all the info is there. but its a very laborous job. so maybe the media is just doing it wrong? EU Parliament is by-in-large more transparent and direct than the UK one (not sure where you're from, but I'm from the UK so that's the lens I have). But you're absolutely right, for some reason the EU "feels" quite closed off, and it's almost entirely the medias fault. Media is driven on eyes, and the further away a thing is the more difficult it is to have eyes on it. It takes huge issues to get international attention, natural disasters that kill hundreds in another EU country are barely mentioned on british media. It's also very boring, so it's not surprising. But, it's actually very easy to read the EU parliamentary, commission documents, and the documentation on how all the processes work is quite clear (even if it's a bit alien on first look because you're taught your own system and have to "unlearn" that a bit first). I'd give it a go, it's not as intimidating as it first appears. But I fully agree that the media should do this, it's literally their job.

dijit 5y ago

Speaking from a UK perspective: we ke{ep,pt} sending eurosceptics to the EU because "they'll hold them to account!", and populism is surprisingly effective. The truth is usually that eurosceptics have no desire to see the EU work and they will support legislature that makes the EU look untenable, stupid and bureaucratic. I suspect this is true for other countries.

raverbashing 5y ago
Yeah, makes sense. But the likes of SPD are too happy to vote together with CDU on any stupid proposal
gadders 5y ago
When did UK eurosceptics vote for legislature like that?
- dijit 5y ago
  Well, Farage himself has the second to lowest voting record , only beaten by Brian Crowley of Ireland who has never at all voted. I’m going to just grab a couple from my phone but I’m sure it would be easy to dig into many others, it’s not a hidden thing really but most people don’t even check who their MEPs are let alone hold them to account on voting records: Tim Aker, voted against subsidising farmers from volatility (a key impact for UKIP voter base and a campaign promise of UKIP: protecting British farmers) and voted for renegotiating to give Greece more capital: https://yourvotematters.eu/en/profile/ec/tim-aker https://yourvotematters.eu/en/profile/ec/tim-aker and Stuart Agnew, a prominent UKIP MEP has intentionally slowed things down with farcical no confidence resolutions https://www.europarl.europa.eu/meps/en/96897/JOHN+STUART_AGNEW/all-activities/motions-instit/8 https://www.europarl.europa.eu/meps/en/96897/JOHN+STUART_AGN...

chronid 5y ago

The EU commission is voted in by the EU governments. The EU council is made by the EU governments. EU citizens elect MEPs. There is no accountability because no one holds them to account and people repeat what you just wrote like gospel, including people writing for newspapers - and that has to stop. You can pressure the EU as much as you can pressure your national government, all you need to do is put the pressure on your national government. Add your MEP on top, but the national governments are enough if you don't want to go the extra step.

mpfundstein 5y ago
i know how the EU works. on paper its nice. but in reality, 99% of people can't even name 5 EU politicians or more than 2 EU parties (if they even can name 1) or even which national party is part of which EU party. the whole thing is a huge black box IN PRACTICE and thats why it is so powerful and uncontrolled.
- skummetmaelk 5y ago
  And why is that? That is because national media cover only national politics in 99% of cases. The EU is only mentioned when the national politicians blame the EU for some of their own failings.