4 ms·

I'm really sorry for the relationship you have with your father. I've had similar experiences, but not as drastic as yours -- my father didn't allow me to use

by raducu 5y ago

I'm really sorry for the relationship you have with your father. I've had similar experiences, but not as drastic as yours -- my father didn't allow me to use my bike for YEARS as a punishment for smashing my bike as a 10 year old (faulty chain, impulsive child). I guess this I would call the real toxic masculinity. Unfortunately there's nothing much you can do, except build your life around it, keep your boundaries firm and perhaps psychotherapy.

vagrantJin 5y ago
> I guess this I would call the real toxic masculinity. HN is the last place I would have expected to see these words. Which is slightly interesting take on a parent - I presume they housed you, fed you, got you educated and relatively safe...I cant possibly imagine you are writing this from a rehab facility or jail. And yet, for denying you a bicycle deems that man "toxic"? And what does a parent taking away a privilege have to do with masculinity? Which one of your human rights were infringed upon exactly? I'm genuinely interested.
- me_me_me 5y ago
  >> my father didn't allow me to use my bike for YEARS as a punishment for smashing my bike as a 10 year old Seriously, being so strict to punish a 10yrs old kid for years is not a sign of a toxic personality? Parents suppose to build theirs kids character and not stomp on it to make them 'tough'. toxic masculinity is not being manly man man. Its being insecure and lashing out at anyone who disagrees with you or is not 'with you'. Any father that thinks their kid misbehaving is somehow a personal attack.
  - raducu 5y ago
    The last bit fits the bill the most in his case -- he took it as a huge personal attack that I smashed the bike he bought, and the tough discipline he was raised in is why I labeled it as toxic masculinity.
    - me_me_me 5y ago
      I am sorry you had a bad luck with your father, but as they say you don't chose your family. Its not your fault he was a shitty parent.
    - teekert 5y ago
      Why do you associate this with masculinity though? Yes, your father is man but I'm not sure if his masculinity has anything to do with it? I recognize the character traits. I know someone raised without a father who also shows them. Perhaps in his case a result of having a tough time financially their entire youth? This put a huge value on stuff (because almost everything is irreplaceable, literally, and there was hardly any time to fix things), leaving little room for error and no reasonable room for breaking stuff, as children do? As I am getting older I really realize that I do things like my parents did them. It is really difficult to just decide to do it differently because of the emotions involved. It is difficult to be rational the whole time, the monkey brain sometimes leads. What is important is to be able to admit your mistakes and being able to apologize. For all my flaws I hope to show my kids at least that there is no shame in this. I'm sometimes harsh on the children only to later apologize and tell them I actually do believe they should be able to make mistakes and that whatever they broke can be fixed again, and if not, no lives were lost (ideally).
      - teekert 5y ago
        I wonder why I get so down-voted, perhaps my non-native speaker brain has a wrong understanding of the term "masculinity"? In this context I take it to mean that being unreasonably angry at kids that wreck stuff is a typical thing for men, and that women don't suffer from this? Is this wrong?
- raducu 5y ago
  Denying a child his bike for YEARS, and I mean years gatheting dust in the shed is toxic by my definition, obviously not the single thing my father did that I would label this as an example of toxic masculinity, otherwise I'd call it "odd", also my dad had enough qualities that I don't label him as abusive, in my mind this is an example of over the top discipline + the other cultural stuff that in my mind I would call toxic masculinity. I am certainly grateful to my father for all the material support he provided, and he did provide a lot and still insists he does, even though I constantly remind him I'm an adult and quite well off myself.
- ajuc 5y ago
  You don't need to be a drunkard to drink alcohol, and you don't need to be permanently toxic to exhibit toxic masculinity. I dislike the term (because people immediately get defensive) but the concept is definitely useful and describes a real phenomena. It's not about masculinity being inherently toxic, it's about toxic expectations men are expected to fulfill by the society. And you don't have to have your human rights infringed, for example something as simple as saying "you are useless" is toxic, yet it doesn't infringe on any rights. Not everything that's legal is good.
  - vagrantJin 5y ago
    You have some points I'd like to engage in but this isn't the platform.
Fnoord 5y ago
That's a harsh punishment. What kind of effect did it have on you? I remember I biked to school at that age (~10-15 min). If I damaged one of my tools, such as my bike or my shoes, it'd look damaged, and I disliked that. But I had to cope with that. That was a punishment by itself. I wasn't able to get a job as system administrator (even though I believe I'd liked it) because I can't program. I tried it various times, and the reason I always quit is because I get frustrated and get migraine symptoms. I tried C, Lua, Python (multiple times), and all I ended up being able to is some Unix kung-fu and shell scripting. Which seemed to be not good enough for system administration. It kind of feels like my failure in life, to be frank. Tho I'm happy I ended up with something else, IT security related.
- qmmmur 5y ago
  Sounds like you gave it a shot and it didn't work and foilund something fulfilling. To me that is the stock standard trial and error of life :)
- raducu 5y ago
  Among other stuff, it contributed to my BPD, of which I've been 75% cured (but I did have some 6 years of psychotherapy). I'm still unlearning the harsh/punitive internal voice, still dealing with people pushing my guilt buttons. It might sound hypocritical, but I'd trade all the material help my parents gave for the freedom to be ME.
superflit 5y ago
Your life is very personal and has its own challenges as everyone. As a father let me add a perspective. A father role is Not to be a friend. He *may* be a friend but its most important role is to prepare the kid to the real world. No kid ever, ever thinks of itself as spoiled. The ego of a kid is always *Me*. That is how they are and it is normal. Now Imagine that *maybe* you as a normal kid were kind of spoiled and impulsive. If you don't "tame" or take down what will be this kid be? *impulse* control is on almost all indicators of success. Does it look harsh YEARS of not using bike? Maybe? Does it worked? Seems like, you appear to be well educated and working. I know you may have anger and feel bad. But how many others things you Did Not smashed because of that? Projects? Relationships? Jobs? Being a parent is very hard your sons have their own destiny and mind and still you have to navigate the ever changing scenario of modern world. Yesterday was a bike, today is a Nintendo Switch/ipad, tomorrow will be levitating hover. /EndRant

by raducu 5y ago

vagrantJin 5y ago

> I guess this I would call the real toxic masculinity. HN is the last place I would have expected to see these words. Which is slightly interesting take on a parent - I presume they housed you, fed you, got you educated and relatively safe...I cant possibly imagine you are writing this from a rehab facility or jail. And yet, for denying you a bicycle deems that man "toxic"? And what does a parent taking away a privilege have to do with masculinity? Which one of your human rights were infringed upon exactly? I'm genuinely interested.

me_me_me 5y ago
>> my father didn't allow me to use my bike for YEARS as a punishment for smashing my bike as a 10 year old Seriously, being so strict to punish a 10yrs old kid for years is not a sign of a toxic personality? Parents suppose to build theirs kids character and not stomp on it to make them 'tough'. toxic masculinity is not being manly man man. Its being insecure and lashing out at anyone who disagrees with you or is not 'with you'. Any father that thinks their kid misbehaving is somehow a personal attack.
- raducu 5y ago
  The last bit fits the bill the most in his case -- he took it as a huge personal attack that I smashed the bike he bought, and the tough discipline he was raised in is why I labeled it as toxic masculinity.
  - me_me_me 5y ago
    I am sorry you had a bad luck with your father, but as they say you don't chose your family. Its not your fault he was a shitty parent.
  - teekert 5y ago
    Why do you associate this with masculinity though? Yes, your father is man but I'm not sure if his masculinity has anything to do with it? I recognize the character traits. I know someone raised without a father who also shows them. Perhaps in his case a result of having a tough time financially their entire youth? This put a huge value on stuff (because almost everything is irreplaceable, literally, and there was hardly any time to fix things), leaving little room for error and no reasonable room for breaking stuff, as children do? As I am getting older I really realize that I do things like my parents did them. It is really difficult to just decide to do it differently because of the emotions involved. It is difficult to be rational the whole time, the monkey brain sometimes leads. What is important is to be able to admit your mistakes and being able to apologize. For all my flaws I hope to show my kids at least that there is no shame in this. I'm sometimes harsh on the children only to later apologize and tell them I actually do believe they should be able to make mistakes and that whatever they broke can be fixed again, and if not, no lives were lost (ideally).
    - teekert 5y ago
      I wonder why I get so down-voted, perhaps my non-native speaker brain has a wrong understanding of the term "masculinity"? In this context I take it to mean that being unreasonably angry at kids that wreck stuff is a typical thing for men, and that women don't suffer from this? Is this wrong?
raducu 5y ago
Denying a child his bike for YEARS, and I mean years gatheting dust in the shed is toxic by my definition, obviously not the single thing my father did that I would label this as an example of toxic masculinity, otherwise I'd call it "odd", also my dad had enough qualities that I don't label him as abusive, in my mind this is an example of over the top discipline + the other cultural stuff that in my mind I would call toxic masculinity. I am certainly grateful to my father for all the material support he provided, and he did provide a lot and still insists he does, even though I constantly remind him I'm an adult and quite well off myself.
ajuc 5y ago
You don't need to be a drunkard to drink alcohol, and you don't need to be permanently toxic to exhibit toxic masculinity. I dislike the term (because people immediately get defensive) but the concept is definitely useful and describes a real phenomena. It's not about masculinity being inherently toxic, it's about toxic expectations men are expected to fulfill by the society. And you don't have to have your human rights infringed, for example something as simple as saying "you are useless" is toxic, yet it doesn't infringe on any rights. Not everything that's legal is good.
- vagrantJin 5y ago
  You have some points I'd like to engage in but this isn't the platform.

Fnoord 5y ago

That's a harsh punishment. What kind of effect did it have on you? I remember I biked to school at that age (~10-15 min). If I damaged one of my tools, such as my bike or my shoes, it'd look damaged, and I disliked that. But I had to cope with that. That was a punishment by itself. I wasn't able to get a job as system administrator (even though I believe I'd liked it) because I can't program. I tried it various times, and the reason I always quit is because I get frustrated and get migraine symptoms. I tried C, Lua, Python (multiple times), and all I ended up being able to is some Unix kung-fu and shell scripting. Which seemed to be not good enough for system administration. It kind of feels like my failure in life, to be frank. Tho I'm happy I ended up with something else, IT security related.

qmmmur 5y ago
Sounds like you gave it a shot and it didn't work and foilund something fulfilling. To me that is the stock standard trial and error of life :)
raducu 5y ago
Among other stuff, it contributed to my BPD, of which I've been 75% cured (but I did have some 6 years of psychotherapy). I'm still unlearning the harsh/punitive internal voice, still dealing with people pushing my guilt buttons. It might sound hypocritical, but I'd trade all the material help my parents gave for the freedom to be ME.

superflit 5y ago

Your life is very personal and has its own challenges as everyone. As a father let me add a perspective. A father role is Not to be a friend. He *may* be a friend but its most important role is to prepare the kid to the real world. No kid ever, ever thinks of itself as spoiled. The ego of a kid is always *Me*. That is how they are and it is normal. Now Imagine that *maybe* you as a normal kid were kind of spoiled and impulsive. If you don't "tame" or take down what will be this kid be? *impulse* control is on almost all indicators of success. Does it look harsh YEARS of not using bike? Maybe? Does it worked? Seems like, you appear to be well educated and working. I know you may have anger and feel bad. But how many others things you Did Not smashed because of that? Projects? Relationships? Jobs? Being a parent is very hard your sons have their own destiny and mind and still you have to navigate the ever changing scenario of modern world. Yesterday was a bike, today is a Nintendo Switch/ipad, tomorrow will be levitating hover. /EndRant