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I think we need to talk about Bitcoin. How much longer do we need to put up with it being the enabler of serious and dangerous cyber crime? Add to that the ser

by Yuioup 5y ago

I think we need to talk about Bitcoin. How much longer do we need to put up with it being the enabler of serious and dangerous cyber crime? Add to that the serious damage it is causing to the environment (I don't want to hear about the 'green energy' nonsense, it's not true and you know it). It's time to eradicate bitcoin.

ryanlol 5y ago
This crime would work with cash or wire transfers. Eradicating cryptocurrency would achieve nothing at this point. These same gangs have extensive infrastructure for stealing millions from US bank accounts, BEC actors are still making more money than ransomware crowd. If a company really wants to pay, they won’t have a problem bringing suitcases full of cash on a private jet to russia. Especially since most of these payments are not made directly by the victims, but third parties who earn their living by facilitating these payments.
- MikeDelta 5y ago
  It is possible, but it is much much harder to make 70 mio USD disappear through the regular financial system. It is much easier with BTC. It is hard to get away with suitcases of cash without getting arrested.
  - ryanlol 5y ago
    > It is hard to get away with suitcases of cash without getting arrested. It is not. The suitcases just need to be delivered in a friendly country such as Russia. Many of the most prolific ransomware criminals have been identified, but they simply live beyond the reach of Western law enforcement. > It is possible, but it is much much harder to make 70 mio USD disappear through the regular financial system. BEC gangs and even regular craigslist scammers manage to do this every day. There’s absurdly extensive infrastructure in the US and abroad to facilitate this.
- ASalazarMX 5y ago
  > If a company really wants to pay, they won’t have a problem bringing suitcases full of cash on a private jet to russia Gentlemen, get your ransoms ready! the Russian Ransomware Jet arrives next Sunday! We used to fly a jet per ransom, but it became so unprofitable we pool them now.
kjaftaedi 5y ago
You can't just stop people from using cryptography and distributed ledgers. Unless of course you want to start building gulags to throw mathematicians in.
- axiosgunnar 5y ago
  Obvious strawman. Nobody wants to ban computers doing calculations. Just ban the exchanges: Revoke licenses for domestic exchanges, and remove foreign exchanges from the SWIFT network. The government regulates far bigger things on a daily basis. You will still be able to „do mathematics“ after the ban, so all is well, since it's totally not about speculating, right? ;-)
  - kjaftaedi 5y ago
    I'll be honest, I did not consider this method. I do agree with you that it would be effective.. but likely only for a year or two. I mean even before cryptocurrency there was E-Gold. Shutting down E-Gold just shifted the problem rather than solving it. Attacking bitcoin specifically as an environmental problem is a valid thought, but there are lots of cryptocurrencies that require no energy so the original problem still persists. Life finds a way.
djbebs 5y ago
Bitcoin is just finw, and so is this.
valdiorn 5y ago
A lot of people point out that Bitcoin doesn't have any inherent value, and is effectively worthless. Well, I recently realised that Bitcoin DOES have value; it is the enabler or criminal activity, and as such, has lots of value to criminals around the world. Those users are enough to ensure that Bitcoin's value does not plummet to zero, because it has this tremendous utility to them for use in illicit activity. Drug dealing, ransomware, terrorist funding, money laundering; it's 100x easier to funnel money for these activities through bitcoin than using the traditional methods.
kyboren 5y ago
Rather than "put up with" this "serious and dangerous" cyber crime, we should celebrate it. The ability to turn vulnerable infrastructure into cash is a godsend for our infosec and our national security (which are increasingly difficult to distinguish). > the enabler I believe this is the source of our disagreement. The enabler is the vulnerability in the infrastructure and the concentration of risk to make a juicy target. If it were impossible to turn this vulnerability into cash--and I disagree that even an effective ban on Bitcoin would accomplish that--it would still exist. Other actors have non-financial incentives to find and sit on these vulnerabilities. Imagine if the ransomware attacks of the last few months had never happened. Those vulnerabilities would still exist, unknown to the defenders, waiting for discovery by attackers. China might discover them and exploit them all simultaneously with an invasion of Taiwan, for example. That would be worth far more than even a few hundred million dollars, in my estimation. These attacks hurt in the short term, to be sure, but they are very helpful in the medium to long term, because they force us to actually harden our infrastructure.
errantmind 5y ago
It must be infuriating to know deep down there is no way for you to eradicate Bitcoin. To feel so powerless.
psychlops 5y ago
By this logic, credit cards should be eradicated as they caused actual losses of $28.75 billion in 2019 and it rises each year. We can only assume CBDC's will offer more of the same, unless even more financial tracking is allowed. This comes at a cost of global financial privacy.
ASalazarMX 5y ago
> It's time to eradicate bitcoin. The real problem is the Bitcoin <-> Fiat exchange. Eradicate the exchanges, that will return Bitcoin to its roots, where it was supposed to replace cash, not transfer it. You want Bitcoin? You don't buy them with USDs, but provide some product/service and accept Bitcoin as payment. Yes, criminals will get increasingly creative, starting a game of cat and mouse, but in the end it will be too much effort compared to traditional cash bags and money laundering. Bonus: the value of BitCoin would be unlinked from the value of USD, it would become a parallel economy.

by Yuioup 5y ago

ryanlol 5y ago

This crime would work with cash or wire transfers. Eradicating cryptocurrency would achieve nothing at this point. These same gangs have extensive infrastructure for stealing millions from US bank accounts, BEC actors are still making more money than ransomware crowd. If a company really wants to pay, they won’t have a problem bringing suitcases full of cash on a private jet to russia. Especially since most of these payments are not made directly by the victims, but third parties who earn their living by facilitating these payments.

MikeDelta 5y ago
It is possible, but it is much much harder to make 70 mio USD disappear through the regular financial system. It is much easier with BTC. It is hard to get away with suitcases of cash without getting arrested.
- ryanlol 5y ago
  > It is hard to get away with suitcases of cash without getting arrested. It is not. The suitcases just need to be delivered in a friendly country such as Russia. Many of the most prolific ransomware criminals have been identified, but they simply live beyond the reach of Western law enforcement. > It is possible, but it is much much harder to make 70 mio USD disappear through the regular financial system. BEC gangs and even regular craigslist scammers manage to do this every day. There’s absurdly extensive infrastructure in the US and abroad to facilitate this.
ASalazarMX 5y ago
> If a company really wants to pay, they won’t have a problem bringing suitcases full of cash on a private jet to russia Gentlemen, get your ransoms ready! the Russian Ransomware Jet arrives next Sunday! We used to fly a jet per ransom, but it became so unprofitable we pool them now.

kjaftaedi 5y ago

You can't just stop people from using cryptography and distributed ledgers. Unless of course you want to start building gulags to throw mathematicians in.

axiosgunnar 5y ago
Obvious strawman. Nobody wants to ban computers doing calculations. Just ban the exchanges: Revoke licenses for domestic exchanges, and remove foreign exchanges from the SWIFT network. The government regulates far bigger things on a daily basis. You will still be able to „do mathematics“ after the ban, so all is well, since it's totally not about speculating, right? ;-)
- kjaftaedi 5y ago
  I'll be honest, I did not consider this method. I do agree with you that it would be effective.. but likely only for a year or two. I mean even before cryptocurrency there was E-Gold. Shutting down E-Gold just shifted the problem rather than solving it. Attacking bitcoin specifically as an environmental problem is a valid thought, but there are lots of cryptocurrencies that require no energy so the original problem still persists. Life finds a way.

djbebs 5y ago

Bitcoin is just finw, and so is this.

valdiorn 5y ago

A lot of people point out that Bitcoin doesn't have any inherent value, and is effectively worthless. Well, I recently realised that Bitcoin DOES have value; it is the enabler or criminal activity, and as such, has lots of value to criminals around the world. Those users are enough to ensure that Bitcoin's value does not plummet to zero, because it has this tremendous utility to them for use in illicit activity. Drug dealing, ransomware, terrorist funding, money laundering; it's 100x easier to funnel money for these activities through bitcoin than using the traditional methods.

kyboren 5y ago

Rather than "put up with" this "serious and dangerous" cyber crime, we should celebrate it. The ability to turn vulnerable infrastructure into cash is a godsend for our infosec and our national security (which are increasingly difficult to distinguish). > the enabler I believe this is the source of our disagreement. The enabler is the vulnerability in the infrastructure and the concentration of risk to make a juicy target. If it were impossible to turn this vulnerability into cash--and I disagree that even an effective ban on Bitcoin would accomplish that--it would still exist. Other actors have non-financial incentives to find and sit on these vulnerabilities. Imagine if the ransomware attacks of the last few months had never happened. Those vulnerabilities would still exist, unknown to the defenders, waiting for discovery by attackers. China might discover them and exploit them all simultaneously with an invasion of Taiwan, for example. That would be worth far more than even a few hundred million dollars, in my estimation. These attacks hurt in the short term, to be sure, but they are very helpful in the medium to long term, because they force us to actually harden our infrastructure.

errantmind 5y ago

It must be infuriating to know deep down there is no way for you to eradicate Bitcoin. To feel so powerless.

psychlops 5y ago

By this logic, credit cards should be eradicated as they caused actual losses of $28.75 billion in 2019 and it rises each year. We can only assume CBDC's will offer more of the same, unless even more financial tracking is allowed. This comes at a cost of global financial privacy.

ASalazarMX 5y ago

> It's time to eradicate bitcoin. The real problem is the Bitcoin <-> Fiat exchange. Eradicate the exchanges, that will return Bitcoin to its roots, where it was supposed to replace cash, not transfer it. You want Bitcoin? You don't buy them with USDs, but provide some product/service and accept Bitcoin as payment. Yes, criminals will get increasingly creative, starting a game of cat and mouse, but in the end it will be too much effort compared to traditional cash bags and money laundering. Bonus: the value of BitCoin would be unlinked from the value of USD, it would become a parallel economy.