5 ms·
Translation: Alpha Zero, we're ready for a rematch!
by cellis 5y ago
Translation: Alpha Zero, we're ready for a rematch!
- ivalm 5y agoAlph zero/mu at similar computation resources was weaker for a while iirc.
- joshuamorton 5y agoRight, my recollection is that stockfish + nnue has been stronger than leela since stockfish 13, and leela is stronger than A0.
- cellis 5y agoIsn't the difference though, that Leela is a pure RL implementation whereas NNUE/SF still uses some tablebase stuff?
- TchoBeer 5y agoNo, NNUE doesn't necessarily need tablebases and Leela uses tablebases too. The difference is that their network architecture are different and their search algos are different.
- ivalm 5y agoLeela uses mcts, sf does not. SF also trains on human positions, while I think Leela is self play only.
- adgjlsfhk1 5y agoSF14's net was actually trained on lc0 data. Human data is way too weak for SF to learn from.
- kohlerm 5y agoYes and I think it's really generous of the LC0 to "donate" that data. On the other side LC0 uses SF during the training process since a while.
- adgjlsfhk1 5y agoIt makes sense. They're both open source programs working towards better understanding of chess. There are actually a few people who develop for both. They are obviously very different types of engines, but they are much closer to friendly rivals than enemies.
- astrange 5y agoAlphaZero and co only trained via self-play because that was their research goal, and they looked unwinnable because they were the first to get this kind of neural net working, but it doesn't seem like it's the best option. AZ notably got completely tilted once it started losing, doesn't necessarily recognize strange positions you can't normally get into, and doesn't care about its win margin at all.
- make3 5y agobut.. they're using a pretty big neural net themselves (NNEU) as far as I can tell? With datasets of hundreds of Gigs. Doesn't this remove the significance of the matchup, that was supposed to be about Deep Learning vs more traditional chess bot methods? Claiming that something that uses a neural net trained on hundreds of gigs of data isn't deep learning .. I mean it's possible, I don't know the details. What is it about now, open vs closed source? Different methods of deep learning and big data fighting? (Both of these are also interesting ofc)
- TchoBeer 5y agoNNUE is much smaller than Leela's net, and has a much different architecture that's optimized more for CPU. Additionally, Leela uses Monte Carlo Tree Search and Stockfish uses Alpha/Beta pruning.
- make3 5y agoThey say that the dataset is hundreds of Gigs worths of games, so the net must still be really pretty big. Though definitely not directly comparable, dataset of GPT2-xl is 8 million web-pages. What I mean to say is that this is clearly deep learning.