4 ms·

Here is a really broad, and hopefully neutral, take on the subject. There is now a popular movement in America that believes the Justice System is too harsh, es

Here is a really broad, and hopefully neutral, take on the subject. There is now a popular movement in America that believes the Justice System is too harsh, especially on minor crimes. This is also coupled with the perception that police officers are prone to using force when it is unnecessary, and, that they use deadly force way too often and haphazardly. There is also a huge racial component to all of this, which I'm sure you're probably aware of and I don't want to wade into. The result is that a lot of cities have begun to avoid sending police offers for petty theft and other reported misdemeanors. This is not to say the police don't show up at all, but when they do its so that the victims can file a police report. It's usually not to stop the theft or vandalism in-progress. Criminals have gotten wise to this, and often steal brazenly knowing that the police won't put serious effort into apprehending them as long as each theft is relatively minor. Many homeless people defecate and urinate freely in public because the police have simply stopped issuing citations for such behavior. The cumulative effect is that many areas feel lawless and that only enables more lawbreaking to take place.

nathanaldensr 5y ago
I'd personally say "are lawless" rather than "feel lawless."
lokar 5y ago
Re: using the sidewalk as a toilet. There is often no public restroom available for the homeless to use. They have no choice.
- pas 5y ago
  Do they go to find a bush/tree at least?
  - josephcsible 5y ago
    No, they don't.
adjkant 5y ago
I think this is a pretty decent summary, but I do genuinely have one factual question here: > Many homeless people defecate and urinate freely in public because the police have simply stopped issuing citations for such behavior. What was a citation doing previously on this given that homeless people would simply ignore a citation? Has this actually increased in a way we can measure? I haven't been in SF since the pandemic, but none of my friends have complained about this in the area, and it seems to me like this assessment appears to be very much split on agreement by political lines. I'm also skeptical of this because I've seen claims of this in my current city (NYC) yet have not seen and general increase save one neighborhood, Times Square. From what I gather, the business district of SF (SOMA) might also just be getting a slight increase here, expanding out from the tenderloin which has always had this as far as the past decade is concerned. Is there anything more widespread than that? It seems like that simply was due to the lack of people actually working in both areas now due to the pandemic, not any police enforcement.
- BitwiseFool 5y ago
  >"What was a citation doing previously on this given that homeless people would simply ignore a citation? Has this actually increased in a way we can measure?" I cannot provide you with an empirical answer, but I can give you an anecdote from a small business owner. That citation used to come with other consequences such as an arrest and a court date. So, many homeless people knew that it was better to do 'their business' somewhere out of sight rather than have to deal with the police. But now that the police don't show up for such things, why bother trying to be discreet?
- LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
  Not sure if fake or real: [1] https://twitter.com/BrebDaily/status/1411561425110126593 https://twitter.com/BrebDaily/status/1411561425110126593 If real, then at least in NYC 'their potty training' persists.
convolvatron 5y ago
I think you're being way too neutral. San Francisco is really sliding into chaos. There is an entire population that steals, sells and buys drugs, lives on the street and has a full time party. the church and the leftists even bring them food every day. do I feel sorry for them? a little. are they making it difficult to live, work, and run a business in the city? absolutely. have a drug dealer operating outside your bedroom window all night for months at time? cops don't care. tweakers start a big bonfire in the middle of the street? cops don't care. homeless persons dogs attacking anyone that tries to use the sidewalk? cops don't care. before the pandemic, it was bad, but the cops would step in if this got too out of line. there was a bit of a detente. if you were a homeless tweaker with nothing but contempt for the idiots that work at jobs and live in houses, and it was clear you could do anything you wanted without fear of repercussion. what would you do?
mcguire 5y ago
This trend has been going on for much longer than that. I've been hearing complaints all of that behavior for years. About 20 years ago, I had an RV broken into in Austin, Texas. When I reported it, the police offered a case number for insurance purposes but no investigation.
- pandaman 5y ago
  Sure, police have only done the CSI "The fiber analysis shows that perp had been wearing a baseball cap sold only as a promotional item at Target and there is pollen from an orchid that grows only in Bahamas, so let's cross check all the Target's customers from that time with the tickets to Bahamas, meanwhile I will call the judge for the warrant for our newspaper thief!" on TV, they probably only do this for high profile murders or $100K+ heists in real life so nobody is going to investigate who broke into your RV past asking any potential witness if available. Showing up to the crime in progress and stopping it is different. It used to happen quite regularly even in California.

nathanaldensr 5y ago

I'd personally say "are lawless" rather than "feel lawless."

lokar 5y ago

Re: using the sidewalk as a toilet. There is often no public restroom available for the homeless to use. They have no choice.

pas 5y ago
Do they go to find a bush/tree at least?
- josephcsible 5y ago
  No, they don't.

adjkant 5y ago

I think this is a pretty decent summary, but I do genuinely have one factual question here: > Many homeless people defecate and urinate freely in public because the police have simply stopped issuing citations for such behavior. What was a citation doing previously on this given that homeless people would simply ignore a citation? Has this actually increased in a way we can measure? I haven't been in SF since the pandemic, but none of my friends have complained about this in the area, and it seems to me like this assessment appears to be very much split on agreement by political lines. I'm also skeptical of this because I've seen claims of this in my current city (NYC) yet have not seen and general increase save one neighborhood, Times Square. From what I gather, the business district of SF (SOMA) might also just be getting a slight increase here, expanding out from the tenderloin which has always had this as far as the past decade is concerned. Is there anything more widespread than that? It seems like that simply was due to the lack of people actually working in both areas now due to the pandemic, not any police enforcement.

BitwiseFool 5y ago
>"What was a citation doing previously on this given that homeless people would simply ignore a citation? Has this actually increased in a way we can measure?" I cannot provide you with an empirical answer, but I can give you an anecdote from a small business owner. That citation used to come with other consequences such as an arrest and a court date. So, many homeless people knew that it was better to do 'their business' somewhere out of sight rather than have to deal with the police. But now that the police don't show up for such things, why bother trying to be discreet?
LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
Not sure if fake or real: [1] https://twitter.com/BrebDaily/status/1411561425110126593 https://twitter.com/BrebDaily/status/1411561425110126593 If real, then at least in NYC 'their potty training' persists.

convolvatron 5y ago

I think you're being way too neutral. San Francisco is really sliding into chaos. There is an entire population that steals, sells and buys drugs, lives on the street and has a full time party. the church and the leftists even bring them food every day. do I feel sorry for them? a little. are they making it difficult to live, work, and run a business in the city? absolutely. have a drug dealer operating outside your bedroom window all night for months at time? cops don't care. tweakers start a big bonfire in the middle of the street? cops don't care. homeless persons dogs attacking anyone that tries to use the sidewalk? cops don't care. before the pandemic, it was bad, but the cops would step in if this got too out of line. there was a bit of a detente. if you were a homeless tweaker with nothing but contempt for the idiots that work at jobs and live in houses, and it was clear you could do anything you wanted without fear of repercussion. what would you do?

mcguire 5y ago

This trend has been going on for much longer than that. I've been hearing complaints all of that behavior for years. About 20 years ago, I had an RV broken into in Austin, Texas. When I reported it, the police offered a case number for insurance purposes but no investigation.

pandaman 5y ago
Sure, police have only done the CSI "The fiber analysis shows that perp had been wearing a baseball cap sold only as a promotional item at Target and there is pollen from an orchid that grows only in Bahamas, so let's cross check all the Target's customers from that time with the tickets to Bahamas, meanwhile I will call the judge for the warrant for our newspaper thief!" on TV, they probably only do this for high profile murders or $100K+ heists in real life so nobody is going to investigate who broke into your RV past asking any potential witness if available. Showing up to the crime in progress and stopping it is different. It used to happen quite regularly even in California.