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Well, I want decentralized peer-to-peer networks and the ability to pay for things using currencies like Monero and Zcash; only, to build the tools that make th

by saurik 5y ago

Well, I want decentralized peer-to-peer networks and the ability to pay for things using currencies like Monero and Zcash; only, to build the tools that make that world happen, I can't only build apps and platforms that only work for half the potential users: the network effects simply don't work like that :/. And yet, Apple insists that, for their own good, all push notifications for users must go through their servers--requiring apps to always have centralized backends, which they currently often outsource to Google or Amazon, further centralizing all data collection--and all payments for all products everywhere by anyone must be made with centralized credit cards through Apple's payment processor. I mean, this is the same company that implemented a feature that causes your computer to phone home to Apple every time you run a program, which they also claim is for your own good? Even the entire setup of their centralized App Store makes them a tool of oppressive governments to do further surveillance on their population, providing centralized chokepoints--ones that only exist because of Apple: Android phones that are marketed to these same regions do not have these issues, proving Apple's excuses are lies--to ban applications such a scam VPNs. The whole situation is ridiculous: centralized systems are inherently anti-private, if not in the short term then in the long term as their incentives wear out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsazo-Gs7ms https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsazo-Gs7ms

srtjstjsj 5y ago
Privacy is not the same as anonymity. Confidentiality is a technique for offering a degree of privacy without anonymity. Offering services to fully anonymous counterparties is fraught with challenges. Android is extremely vulnerable to third party attackers via apps. > I can't only build apps and platforms that only work for half the potential users. Are you sure even close to half of your potential users use (exclusively) iOS? I severely doubt that. Exactly for the reasons you mention, people who want self-managed security don't use iOS.
- novok 5y ago
  If you're a mobile developer, the market numbers are pretty well known. About %50 in the USA is iOS & %15-%20 is iOS internationally. And even in the international case, that %15-20 is around +%50 of the REVENUE. iOS users pay way more and these facts have been fairly stable for years. And what apple is doing is not giving their customers and users a choice other than an extremely radical one of abandoning the platform completely.
- saurik 5y ago
  In addition to the absolutely "well known" market share and revenue numbers listed in the sister comment, because many of my users care deeply about both security and privacy--which this absolutely is: Monero and Zcash are both called "privacy coins" and not "anonymity coins" for a reason... being able to avoid any third-party (including Apple or banks or governments) from knowing who you transacted with is different from building systems where the person you are transacting with doesn't know who you are (even if they are related)--I would expect more than the usual share of users for such a product to be using iOS, a decision that even I tell people is a smart decision... due to the better permissions and capabilities/entitlement systems and due to the longer support and seemingly better care towards security in general, and not at all due to the App Store's centralized BS. FWIW, though: 1) even if you expected the vast majority of people to be using one system instead of the other, you can't build a communications platform or payment system or ecosystem generally at all that simply cuts them out as it causes problems for the people and companies trying to adopt it... if you build a platform for decentralized apps that doesn't support iOS or a chat system that doesn't support iOS or a payment system that doesn't support iOS, well, you now have to convince everyone else in the world not to support iOS: your hands are frankly tied here.
layoutIfNeeded 5y ago
With all due respect, this is not about your open source decentralized peer-to-peer crypto utopia. This is about third-party app stores. This is about Google- and Facebook-type companies gaining unfettered access to the most lucrative user segment (rich iPhone users) and data-mining the crap out of them. This is about billions of dollars of juicy advertising revenue.
novok 5y ago
Curious why the video is unlisted?
- saurik 5y ago
  OMG that would explain why it is always so difficult for me to find the link every time I want to paste it!! Thanks!!
saurik 5y ago
I hate leaving such a useless comment but this autocorrect-assisted typo is so horribly confusing: "a scam VPNs" -> "as VPNs". (I guess I will just take this forced opportunity to then point out that this is all viscerally concrete for me, as the developer of both Cydia and now Orchid: I recently sued Apple over these issues.)
zepto 5y ago
> only, to build the tools that make that world happen, I can't only build apps and platforms that only work for half the potential users: the network effects simply don't work like that I call complete bullshit on this. I want the same thing, and so so many other people. The only reason we don’t have it is that it’s a lot of work and nobody has done it yet. Blaming Apple for their business standing in the way of network effects is just an excuse. If the software was built, we’d find a way to run it.
- saurik 5y ago
  Well, claim what you will, but the Ethereum community has been making great strides in these areas, but Apple has forced all of the wallets to remove their dApp browsers and has caused companies such as mine to have to spend immense amounts of time trying to figure out how to build fiat payment gateways for cryptocurrencies over Apple in-app-purchases rather than working on our actual decentralized product as we got rejected from the App Store due to failing to give Apple their cut.
  - zepto 5y ago
    Again, just false. Nobody has built anything like the whole stack needed for a secure distributed App Store with private payments. It’s obvious you can’t build such a thing on top of Apple’s store, it’s just not credible to claim to be trying and being stopped by Apple. You could build one for Linux or Android. If you actually made it work, then it would be existence proof that a centralized model is not needed for a private and secure store. That hasn’t been proven and the way to prove it is clearly to build it where it can be built, not to make arguments about Apple’s bad faith.

by saurik 5y ago

srtjstjsj 5y ago

Privacy is not the same as anonymity. Confidentiality is a technique for offering a degree of privacy without anonymity. Offering services to fully anonymous counterparties is fraught with challenges. Android is extremely vulnerable to third party attackers via apps. > I can't only build apps and platforms that only work for half the potential users. Are you sure even close to half of your potential users use (exclusively) iOS? I severely doubt that. Exactly for the reasons you mention, people who want self-managed security don't use iOS.

novok 5y ago
If you're a mobile developer, the market numbers are pretty well known. About %50 in the USA is iOS & %15-%20 is iOS internationally. And even in the international case, that %15-20 is around +%50 of the REVENUE. iOS users pay way more and these facts have been fairly stable for years. And what apple is doing is not giving their customers and users a choice other than an extremely radical one of abandoning the platform completely.
saurik 5y ago
In addition to the absolutely "well known" market share and revenue numbers listed in the sister comment, because many of my users care deeply about both security and privacy--which this absolutely is: Monero and Zcash are both called "privacy coins" and not "anonymity coins" for a reason... being able to avoid any third-party (including Apple or banks or governments) from knowing who you transacted with is different from building systems where the person you are transacting with doesn't know who you are (even if they are related)--I would expect more than the usual share of users for such a product to be using iOS, a decision that even I tell people is a smart decision... due to the better permissions and capabilities/entitlement systems and due to the longer support and seemingly better care towards security in general, and not at all due to the App Store's centralized BS. FWIW, though: 1) even if you expected the vast majority of people to be using one system instead of the other, you can't build a communications platform or payment system or ecosystem generally at all that simply cuts them out as it causes problems for the people and companies trying to adopt it... if you build a platform for decentralized apps that doesn't support iOS or a chat system that doesn't support iOS or a payment system that doesn't support iOS, well, you now have to convince everyone else in the world not to support iOS: your hands are frankly tied here.

layoutIfNeeded 5y ago

With all due respect, this is not about your open source decentralized peer-to-peer crypto utopia. This is about third-party app stores. This is about Google- and Facebook-type companies gaining unfettered access to the most lucrative user segment (rich iPhone users) and data-mining the crap out of them. This is about billions of dollars of juicy advertising revenue.

novok 5y ago

Curious why the video is unlisted?

saurik 5y ago
OMG that would explain why it is always so difficult for me to find the link every time I want to paste it!! Thanks!!

saurik 5y ago

I hate leaving such a useless comment but this autocorrect-assisted typo is so horribly confusing: "a scam VPNs" -> "as VPNs". (I guess I will just take this forced opportunity to then point out that this is all viscerally concrete for me, as the developer of both Cydia and now Orchid: I recently sued Apple over these issues.)

zepto 5y ago

> only, to build the tools that make that world happen, I can't only build apps and platforms that only work for half the potential users: the network effects simply don't work like that I call complete bullshit on this. I want the same thing, and so so many other people. The only reason we don’t have it is that it’s a lot of work and nobody has done it yet. Blaming Apple for their business standing in the way of network effects is just an excuse. If the software was built, we’d find a way to run it.

saurik 5y ago
Well, claim what you will, but the Ethereum community has been making great strides in these areas, but Apple has forced all of the wallets to remove their dApp browsers and has caused companies such as mine to have to spend immense amounts of time trying to figure out how to build fiat payment gateways for cryptocurrencies over Apple in-app-purchases rather than working on our actual decentralized product as we got rejected from the App Store due to failing to give Apple their cut.
- zepto 5y ago
  Again, just false. Nobody has built anything like the whole stack needed for a secure distributed App Store with private payments. It’s obvious you can’t build such a thing on top of Apple’s store, it’s just not credible to claim to be trying and being stopped by Apple. You could build one for Linux or Android. If you actually made it work, then it would be existence proof that a centralized model is not needed for a private and secure store. That hasn’t been proven and the way to prove it is clearly to build it where it can be built, not to make arguments about Apple’s bad faith.