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I don't understand why you're comparing Audacity to Python. ffmpeg would be a much better comparison to emacs or python – and I admit I'd be surprised if ffmpeg

I don't understand why you're comparing Audacity to Python. ffmpeg would be a much better comparison to emacs or python – and I admit I'd be surprised if ffmpeg was emitting telemetry like crash reports. Audacity's more comparable peer would be Adobe Photoshop. I'd expect crash reports in a GUI app like either of these. I'd also expect that anyone with data on a server would need a clause like "data necessary for law enforcement". I would not expect that law enforcement regularly hounds Adobe for data from crash reports.

geofft 5y ago
Well, I'm making that comparison because Audacity is - historically - an open-source app created by volunteers (originally created by a CMU professor and grad student). That's why I think it's a culture thing. (Emacs is a GUI app too, so the line isn't quite "GUI apps." Or maybe consider Signal vs. Facebook Messenger.) Is it part of the culture of open-source programs like Emacs and ffmpeg, or is it part of the culture of closed-source programs like Photoshop and Facebook? I do actually think Firefox is a very interesting comparison here, because despite coming from the open-source culture, they collect extensive telemetry and they do work in a model where they can't expect user participation. But they in fact have no clause about data necessary for law enforcement. (I'm also not defending Firefox as perfect, and a complication of Firefox is that it's designed to be used with an internet connection anyway. Audacity is an app that makes perfect sense to use offline. So was Photoshop, for that matter.) In any case, the clause itself is not the interesting part; the interesting part is the implication that they have enough data to be interesting to law enforcement. Adobe and Facebook certainly do; whether or not it's used, it's there, and there are so many other reasons to be concerned about the data existing (rogue employees, hacks/leaks, etc.). The developers of Emacs clearly don't. I would guess the developers of Firefox try to avoid it, which is why Firefox doesn't need such a clause.
- rattray 5y ago
  > the implication that they have enough data to be interesting to law enforcement I definitely agree that this is what people are upset about, it just seems like an overreaction. After all, that's probably not why they added the line – it's probably just part of the boilerplate used by their new lawyers.

geofft 5y ago

Well, I'm making that comparison because Audacity is - historically - an open-source app created by volunteers (originally created by a CMU professor and grad student). That's why I think it's a culture thing. (Emacs is a GUI app too, so the line isn't quite "GUI apps." Or maybe consider Signal vs. Facebook Messenger.) Is it part of the culture of open-source programs like Emacs and ffmpeg, or is it part of the culture of closed-source programs like Photoshop and Facebook? I do actually think Firefox is a very interesting comparison here, because despite coming from the open-source culture, they collect extensive telemetry and they do work in a model where they can't expect user participation. But they in fact have no clause about data necessary for law enforcement. (I'm also not defending Firefox as perfect, and a complication of Firefox is that it's designed to be used with an internet connection anyway. Audacity is an app that makes perfect sense to use offline. So was Photoshop, for that matter.) In any case, the clause itself is not the interesting part; the interesting part is the implication that they have enough data to be interesting to law enforcement. Adobe and Facebook certainly do; whether or not it's used, it's there, and there are so many other reasons to be concerned about the data existing (rogue employees, hacks/leaks, etc.). The developers of Emacs clearly don't. I would guess the developers of Firefox try to avoid it, which is why Firefox doesn't need such a clause.

rattray 5y ago
> the implication that they have enough data to be interesting to law enforcement I definitely agree that this is what people are upset about, it just seems like an overreaction. After all, that's probably not why they added the line – it's probably just part of the boilerplate used by their new lawyers.