5 ms·

Preventing the spread of more ivermectin bullshit is not a 'bad end' and having a Nobel Prize does not make you infallible (c.f. James Watson.) If you don't lik

by evgen 5y ago

Preventing the spread of more ivermectin bullshit is not a 'bad end' and having a Nobel Prize does not make you infallible (c.f. James Watson.) If you don't like the policies on one site you are free to find another, it is not like anyone owes you or anyone else a platform. Your 'free speech' rights end at the point where your hand dips into someone else's wallet to pay for the platform.

moralestapia 5y ago
>Preventing the spread of more ivermectin bullshit is not a 'bad end' and having a Nobel Prize does not make you infallible Wow, what an extremely deluded point of view. And I am, for one, a person who is extremely picky with fallacies and constantly point out appeals to authority (among other things) here on the site, you can check my comment history. Still, this is the guy that discovered the family of compounds that Ivermectin is part of, he is a scientist with no known issues of dishonesty of wrongdoing and he is extremely familiar with the compound and its effects. What is the problem with him giving its opinion on this medication, under the current light of the pandemic we are experiencing? What problem would anyone have with that? Geez.
- evgen 5y ago
  The problem is that he has no qualifications or data to indicate that it is effective for this specific use. Invermectin was developed as an anti-parasite treatment as a variant of something discovered by the microbiologist in question. Let's be perfectly clear about this: Satoshi Omura is not a doctor, he is a microbiologist. He has no specific expertise when it comes to in vivo application of invermectin and absolutely no expertise regarding covid-19. I have no problem with him providing his opinion, but I also don't care if an airline ignores my car mechanic when it comes to maintenance of the latest Airbus.
  - prohobo 5y ago
    Here's a problem I'm having with these discussions: first of all, none of the people involved - like you - are qualified to make a judgement one way or another. What we're left with is just straight up following the rules of scientific inquiry. So, just going at it from that perspective: you're clearly in the wrong. Anyone who might have information that helps solve a problem should be able to come forward. Anyone who wants to stop that is a problem. As for your skepticism - disparaging credentialed scientists as conspiracy theorists - you also have that ass-backwards. In any scientific discussion, it's the people who have vested interests (financial, institutional, personal) who you most need to be skeptical of. Satoshi Omura has nothing to gain from this, but the pharmaceutical companies definitely do. So what are you trying to do here?
  - moralestapia 5y ago
    >The problem is that he has no qualifications or data to indicate that it is effective for this specific use. Whew. From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satoshi_%C5%8Cmura https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satoshi_%C5%8Cmura 1958, Science teacher at Tokyo Metropolitan Sumida Tech High School. 1960, Enrolled in the Tokyo University of Science (TUS) and studied sciences. ~1968, M.S. degree from TUS and his Ph.D. in Pharmaceutical Sciences (literally!) from the University of Tokyo. 1970, Ph.D. in Chemistry at TUS 1973, He became a director of the antibiotic laboratory at Kitasato University. "Since the 1970s, Ōmura has discovered more than 480 new compounds, of which 25 kinds of drugs and reagents are in use." 2015, Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine jointly with William C. Campbell and Tu Youyou for discoveries concerning a novel therapy against infections caused by roundworm parasites. Let me get this straight, so now you and your deluded mind are, somehow, suggesting that this person is not qualified to talk about Ivermectin? Just stop it, really, you're making a fool of yourself.
    - perl4ever 5y ago
      What do you think of Linus Pauling's views on vitamin C curing cancer, the common cold, angina pectoris, etc? "the only person to have been awarded two unshared Nobel Prizes" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linus_Pauling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linus_Pauling Or, Isaac Newton's treatment for the plague: "the best is a toad suspended by the legs in a chimney for three days, which at last vomited up earth with various insects in it, on to a dish of yellow wax, and shortly after died. Combining powdered toad with the excretions and serum made into lozenges and worn about the affected area drove away the contagion and drew out the poison" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton These are some of the best scientists of all time. OF ALL TIME! How could you doubt them? Also, are you under the impression that covid-19 is a "parasitic infection"?
      - moralestapia 5y ago
        >These are some of the best scientists of all time. OF ALL TIME! How could you doubt them? It's not about that. Forget about the Nobel Prize, the guy still has 50+(!) or so years doing pharma research, plus he discovered Ivermectin, wouldn't you want to hear what he thinks about it? Arguments from authority are wrong, I know, but experts DO exist in any given field and you can't just dismiss what they're saying.
zpeti 5y ago
So you would prefer YouTube be the arbiter of truth in the case of scientific debate, and have the power to overrule the speech of a Nobel winning scientist? How does that results in a good situation for science in the long run? Even if ivermectin works or doesn’t, is YouTube’s community standards team the right people to decide on controversial scientific issues?
- evgen 5y ago
  A Nobel laureate does not need Youtube to get a message out, unless they are peddling conspiracy-grade bullshit. Youtube gets to be the arbiter of what content gets shared over Youtube. Don't like that? Too bad.
  - rdbell 5y ago
    I've got no dog in this fight either way, but it sounds like you're celebrating the fact that Omura can't share his opinions on this drug, meanwhile you're sharing your opinions on the same drug here on HN. Feels a little bit hypocritical.
    - evgen 5y ago
      I am not celebrating, but I do not think it is some grand conspiracy or worthy of much note. Given the amount of 'this is the magic bullet, I am sure of it this time' bullshit that we have all had to put up with for over a year from anti-lockdown idiots I am simply sick and tired of it. We did this a year ago with hyroxychloroquine from the same group of people. Maybe we can let the actual experts do the research. There are a bunch of garbage surveillance studies out there, a few biased sample studies, but no real data. We are now starting the real studies so maybe we can wait a bit before deciding that this is some magic treatment and that anyone claiming otherwise or trying to slow the spread of these mis-informed stores is somehow participating in some censorship conspiracy.
      - rdbell 5y ago
        Fair enough. It's sad to see everything online turned political and used as ammunition against the other side. I think the reality is that (mostly) everyone wants truth to be discovered and for everyone to be healthy.
effie 5y ago
> Preventing the spread of more ivermectin bullshit Educate yourself. Ivermectin has been thoroughly tested and works in profylaxis and early treatment [1]. [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34145166/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34145166/
- evgen 5y ago
  There are also meta-analysis that show invermectin to be ineffective and even deadly. Perhaps you should educate yourself regarding the different meta-analysis available and how they differ (in particular, the one you cite is noted for its high bias.) Feel free to try [1] or [2] and assess the differences in outcome of the analysis when obviously garbage studies are removed or weighted less. Thankfully, we have several _real_ studies happening that are being conducted by people who know what they are doing and are not just surveillance studies but are directly looking at the efficacy of invermectin as a treatment option. [1] https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-148845/v1 https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-148845/v1 [2] https://cadth.ca/sites/default/files/covid-19/RC1336%20-%20Ivermectin%20for%20COVID-19%20v6.4.pdf https://cadth.ca/sites/default/files/covid-19/RC1336%20-%20I...
  - shaicoleman 5y ago
    From link 1 (Jan/2021): "In six randomized trials of moderate or severe infection, there was a 75% reduction in mortality (Relative Risk=0.25 [95%CI 0.12-0.52]; p=0.0002); 14/650 (2.1%) deaths on ivermectin; 57/597 (9.5%) deaths in controls) with favorable clinical recovery and reduced hospitalization." From link 2 (Feb/2021): "The RCT reported no serious drug-related adverse events in all patients." "The overall pooled odds ratio was 0.53 (95% CI 0.29 to 0.96); P = 0.04. It was estimated that ivermectin was associated with 54 fewer deaths per 1,000 (95% CI, 3 fewer to 85 fewer)" Ivermectin is one of the safest drugs in the world, with no adverse events when taking 10x the approved dose. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12362927/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12362927/ Both links are out of date, and there's been plenty of studies since.
    - evgen 5y ago
twirlock 5y ago
You don't know anything about ivermectin. You have no clue at all whether it's effective or not.

by evgen 5y ago

moralestapia 5y ago

>Preventing the spread of more ivermectin bullshit is not a 'bad end' and having a Nobel Prize does not make you infallible Wow, what an extremely deluded point of view. And I am, for one, a person who is extremely picky with fallacies and constantly point out appeals to authority (among other things) here on the site, you can check my comment history. Still, this is the guy that discovered the family of compounds that Ivermectin is part of, he is a scientist with no known issues of dishonesty of wrongdoing and he is extremely familiar with the compound and its effects. What is the problem with him giving its opinion on this medication, under the current light of the pandemic we are experiencing? What problem would anyone have with that? Geez.

evgen 5y ago
The problem is that he has no qualifications or data to indicate that it is effective for this specific use. Invermectin was developed as an anti-parasite treatment as a variant of something discovered by the microbiologist in question. Let's be perfectly clear about this: Satoshi Omura is not a doctor, he is a microbiologist. He has no specific expertise when it comes to in vivo application of invermectin and absolutely no expertise regarding covid-19. I have no problem with him providing his opinion, but I also don't care if an airline ignores my car mechanic when it comes to maintenance of the latest Airbus.
- prohobo 5y ago
  Here's a problem I'm having with these discussions: first of all, none of the people involved - like you - are qualified to make a judgement one way or another. What we're left with is just straight up following the rules of scientific inquiry. So, just going at it from that perspective: you're clearly in the wrong. Anyone who might have information that helps solve a problem should be able to come forward. Anyone who wants to stop that is a problem. As for your skepticism - disparaging credentialed scientists as conspiracy theorists - you also have that ass-backwards. In any scientific discussion, it's the people who have vested interests (financial, institutional, personal) who you most need to be skeptical of. Satoshi Omura has nothing to gain from this, but the pharmaceutical companies definitely do. So what are you trying to do here?
- moralestapia 5y ago
  >The problem is that he has no qualifications or data to indicate that it is effective for this specific use. Whew. From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satoshi_%C5%8Cmura https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satoshi_%C5%8Cmura 1958, Science teacher at Tokyo Metropolitan Sumida Tech High School. 1960, Enrolled in the Tokyo University of Science (TUS) and studied sciences. ~1968, M.S. degree from TUS and his Ph.D. in Pharmaceutical Sciences (literally!) from the University of Tokyo. 1970, Ph.D. in Chemistry at TUS 1973, He became a director of the antibiotic laboratory at Kitasato University. "Since the 1970s, Ōmura has discovered more than 480 new compounds, of which 25 kinds of drugs and reagents are in use." 2015, Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine jointly with William C. Campbell and Tu Youyou for discoveries concerning a novel therapy against infections caused by roundworm parasites. Let me get this straight, so now you and your deluded mind are, somehow, suggesting that this person is not qualified to talk about Ivermectin? Just stop it, really, you're making a fool of yourself.
  - perl4ever 5y ago
    What do you think of Linus Pauling's views on vitamin C curing cancer, the common cold, angina pectoris, etc? "the only person to have been awarded two unshared Nobel Prizes" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linus_Pauling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linus_Pauling Or, Isaac Newton's treatment for the plague: "the best is a toad suspended by the legs in a chimney for three days, which at last vomited up earth with various insects in it, on to a dish of yellow wax, and shortly after died. Combining powdered toad with the excretions and serum made into lozenges and worn about the affected area drove away the contagion and drew out the poison" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton These are some of the best scientists of all time. OF ALL TIME! How could you doubt them? Also, are you under the impression that covid-19 is a "parasitic infection"?
    - moralestapia 5y ago
      >These are some of the best scientists of all time. OF ALL TIME! How could you doubt them? It's not about that. Forget about the Nobel Prize, the guy still has 50+(!) or so years doing pharma research, plus he discovered Ivermectin, wouldn't you want to hear what he thinks about it? Arguments from authority are wrong, I know, but experts DO exist in any given field and you can't just dismiss what they're saying.

zpeti 5y ago

So you would prefer YouTube be the arbiter of truth in the case of scientific debate, and have the power to overrule the speech of a Nobel winning scientist? How does that results in a good situation for science in the long run? Even if ivermectin works or doesn’t, is YouTube’s community standards team the right people to decide on controversial scientific issues?

evgen 5y ago
A Nobel laureate does not need Youtube to get a message out, unless they are peddling conspiracy-grade bullshit. Youtube gets to be the arbiter of what content gets shared over Youtube. Don't like that? Too bad.
- rdbell 5y ago
  I've got no dog in this fight either way, but it sounds like you're celebrating the fact that Omura can't share his opinions on this drug, meanwhile you're sharing your opinions on the same drug here on HN. Feels a little bit hypocritical.
  - evgen 5y ago
    I am not celebrating, but I do not think it is some grand conspiracy or worthy of much note. Given the amount of 'this is the magic bullet, I am sure of it this time' bullshit that we have all had to put up with for over a year from anti-lockdown idiots I am simply sick and tired of it. We did this a year ago with hyroxychloroquine from the same group of people. Maybe we can let the actual experts do the research. There are a bunch of garbage surveillance studies out there, a few biased sample studies, but no real data. We are now starting the real studies so maybe we can wait a bit before deciding that this is some magic treatment and that anyone claiming otherwise or trying to slow the spread of these mis-informed stores is somehow participating in some censorship conspiracy.
    - rdbell 5y ago
      Fair enough. It's sad to see everything online turned political and used as ammunition against the other side. I think the reality is that (mostly) everyone wants truth to be discovered and for everyone to be healthy.

effie 5y ago

> Preventing the spread of more ivermectin bullshit Educate yourself. Ivermectin has been thoroughly tested and works in profylaxis and early treatment [1]. [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34145166/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34145166/

evgen 5y ago
There are also meta-analysis that show invermectin to be ineffective and even deadly. Perhaps you should educate yourself regarding the different meta-analysis available and how they differ (in particular, the one you cite is noted for its high bias.) Feel free to try [1] or [2] and assess the differences in outcome of the analysis when obviously garbage studies are removed or weighted less. Thankfully, we have several _real_ studies happening that are being conducted by people who know what they are doing and are not just surveillance studies but are directly looking at the efficacy of invermectin as a treatment option. [1] https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-148845/v1 https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-148845/v1 [2] https://cadth.ca/sites/default/files/covid-19/RC1336%20-%20Ivermectin%20for%20COVID-19%20v6.4.pdf https://cadth.ca/sites/default/files/covid-19/RC1336%20-%20I...
- shaicoleman 5y ago
  From link 1 (Jan/2021): "In six randomized trials of moderate or severe infection, there was a 75% reduction in mortality (Relative Risk=0.25 [95%CI 0.12-0.52]; p=0.0002); 14/650 (2.1%) deaths on ivermectin; 57/597 (9.5%) deaths in controls) with favorable clinical recovery and reduced hospitalization." From link 2 (Feb/2021): "The RCT reported no serious drug-related adverse events in all patients." "The overall pooled odds ratio was 0.53 (95% CI 0.29 to 0.96); P = 0.04. It was estimated that ivermectin was associated with 54 fewer deaths per 1,000 (95% CI, 3 fewer to 85 fewer)" Ivermectin is one of the safest drugs in the world, with no adverse events when taking 10x the approved dose. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12362927/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12362927/ Both links are out of date, and there's been plenty of studies since.
  - evgen 5y ago

twirlock 5y ago

You don't know anything about ivermectin. You have no clue at all whether it's effective or not.