4 ms·

All these roads have been built by a society that has been poorer than ours. If they could afford that, so can we. It’s really as simple as that.

by xyzzyz 5y ago

radicalbyte 5y ago
Poorer in absolute terms, sure. But take a random sample of 100 people from the city population and compare inflation (calculated including housing!) adjusted income and you'll see the opposite.
- rightbyte 5y ago
  There is a machine on the road under my balcony right now, chugging and chewing asphalt 2 yards wide and spitting it up on a truck in-front of it. Road maintenance must be so much easier today than in the 70s. It feel to me neglect is by choice not necessity.
  - croes 5y ago
    But the demands on the roads are also higher. Cars have more horsepower, higher speed, more weight. In addition, the roads are usually poorly repaired, so you have to repair them more often. In addition, the contracts are often tendered for private companies and the cheapest company wins. Thanks to the poor quality, repairs then have to be carried out correspondingly often.
    - MomoXenosaga 5y ago
      Highways need to be completely rebuilt every 10 years. Most countries can't do this hence potholes and non working lights.
      - xyzzyz 5y ago
        > Highways need to be completely rebuilt every 10 years. This is completely false. Even just repaving usually has longer schedule.
        LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
        Wouldn't this vary, depending on load and climate?
    - pseudo0 5y ago
      Isn't the vast majority of road damage done by trucks due to their much heavier loads per axle? There probably are more trucks on the roads today to serve our larger population, but at the same time we've also built more roads. No idea how to translate that into average wear over time though per road.
    - zepto 5y ago
      > Cars have more … weight. Really?
      - croes 5y ago
        Thanks to the rise of SUVs.
        tharkun__ 5y ago
        And apparently not just that (as in more huge cars being bought). Even "small European cars" contribute. Smallest trim/model 1999 F150 curb weight ~3900lbs F150 2020 model ~4000lbs (the F150 apparently can all go up to almost 5000 lbs) VW Jetta 1991 ~2700 lbs VW Jetta 2020 ~3200lbs VW Golf 1992 ~2400lbs VW Golf 2020 ~3000lbs
lcpriest 5y ago
That's not how that works. Infrastructure is built with many years of a cities budget; they are maintained with the current years (and sometimes, the next 5 years) budget.
audunw 5y ago
In some ways, we are poorer than our parents. Sure, we can buy TVs that are a ten times bigger for a fraction of the inflation adjusted price.. But we’re talking roads here, and roads are built with bitumen. The fact is that bitumen is getting scarcer and more expensive. Our cars are getting more fuel efficient and EVs don’t use fuel at all. But the cars still require the same amount of road, the same amount of bitumen, or maybe even more since cars are heavier and faster now. We can’t extract oil just to make bitumen. That’s not economical. We primarily extract oil to get the fuel we need, and we get a certain amount of bitumen as a by-product. Our parents generation was lucky that oil was practically pouring out of the ground..
- TheOtherHobbes 5y ago
  Schrodinger's Market Economy. This is the most prosperous, generous, and advanced civilisation ever, with the largest number of billionaires. But most people who are younger than Boomers are poorer than their parents, and public infrastructure and public services have somehow become unaffordable.
- bryanlarsen 5y ago
  Bitumen is such an insignificant portion of the price of a road that it can increase in price an order of magnitude with no noticable effect on the road price. It would have an even smaller effect on road maintenance costs.
- LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
  Let's use Carbocrete, made of co² sucked out of the air, powered by advanced high temperature fission or fusion. Mixed with remolten desert sand if need be, which is otherwise unusable.
White_Wolf 5y ago
That is not entirely true. Try comparing how many minimum wage paychecks you needed to buy a house then and with how many you need now and what is took to build a house (including permits and land) and what it takes now. It will be different form country to country and the tech level was lower but the majority of the young ones these days will neven own (paid morgage) a house by the time they are 35.
- syshum 5y ago
  While housing is extremely over priced right now, it is also important to note that a "standard home" has changed ALOT. My Grandparents raised 4 children in a 2 bedroom 1 bath 900 square foot home, which was a "standard home" in the 40/50's Today the standard home is 2x the size with more bathrooms, and larger lots. This is a source of alot of the problems as well. When developers build a subdivision they are not building small homes, they are building 4 bedroom, 3 bath, 2,000 square foot homes Overall The World Is Becoming a Better Place [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4J5s6aZCPSg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4J5s6aZCPSg
  - theelous3 5y ago
    To add to this: larger houses and plots hav the knock on effect of making under street piping need to be x3 or even x4 times longer to span the frontage, and have more complex outputs, and be larger with higher pressures - same but inverse for waste lines and their inputs. Same for electric lines, and those lines have to carry _way_ more power. And Internet cabling, and road surface standards are higher, blah blah forever. Size and modernity makes this not scale so linearly The debt of modern development is higher than the debt of the previous cycles.
  - ElFitz 5y ago
    Really depends who you ask and where they live. Home sizes in Paris haven’t changed much over the past 50 years. Yet, prices have exploded. Heck, they’ve skyrocketed. For the exact same thing. Only a bit older. New apartments, no bigger but built in the suburbs, far from the subway (and not close to the regional trains) cost the same as the old ones of the same size did in Paris 10 years ago (and they were already priced crazily). With the same numbers of bathrooms but no job that could enable one to afford such a place less than 45 minutes away. The 2.000sqft 3 bathrooms home with a lawn appears to be a very American thing.

All these roads have been built by a society that has been poorer than ours. If they could afford that, so can we. It’s really as simple as that.

by xyzzyz 5y ago

All these roads have been built by a society that has been poorer than ours. If they could afford that, so can we. It’s really as simple as that.

radicalbyte 5y ago

Poorer in absolute terms, sure. But take a random sample of 100 people from the city population and compare inflation (calculated including housing!) adjusted income and you'll see the opposite.

rightbyte 5y ago
There is a machine on the road under my balcony right now, chugging and chewing asphalt 2 yards wide and spitting it up on a truck in-front of it. Road maintenance must be so much easier today than in the 70s. It feel to me neglect is by choice not necessity.
- croes 5y ago
  But the demands on the roads are also higher. Cars have more horsepower, higher speed, more weight. In addition, the roads are usually poorly repaired, so you have to repair them more often. In addition, the contracts are often tendered for private companies and the cheapest company wins. Thanks to the poor quality, repairs then have to be carried out correspondingly often.
  - MomoXenosaga 5y ago
    Highways need to be completely rebuilt every 10 years. Most countries can't do this hence potholes and non working lights.
    - xyzzyz 5y ago
      > Highways need to be completely rebuilt every 10 years. This is completely false. Even just repaving usually has longer schedule.
      - LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
        Wouldn't this vary, depending on load and climate?
  - pseudo0 5y ago
    Isn't the vast majority of road damage done by trucks due to their much heavier loads per axle? There probably are more trucks on the roads today to serve our larger population, but at the same time we've also built more roads. No idea how to translate that into average wear over time though per road.
  - zepto 5y ago
    > Cars have more … weight. Really?
    - croes 5y ago
      Thanks to the rise of SUVs.
      - tharkun__ 5y ago
        And apparently not just that (as in more huge cars being bought). Even "small European cars" contribute. Smallest trim/model 1999 F150 curb weight ~3900lbs F150 2020 model ~4000lbs (the F150 apparently can all go up to almost 5000 lbs) VW Jetta 1991 ~2700 lbs VW Jetta 2020 ~3200lbs VW Golf 1992 ~2400lbs VW Golf 2020 ~3000lbs

lcpriest 5y ago

That's not how that works. Infrastructure is built with many years of a cities budget; they are maintained with the current years (and sometimes, the next 5 years) budget.

audunw 5y ago

In some ways, we are poorer than our parents. Sure, we can buy TVs that are a ten times bigger for a fraction of the inflation adjusted price.. But we’re talking roads here, and roads are built with bitumen. The fact is that bitumen is getting scarcer and more expensive. Our cars are getting more fuel efficient and EVs don’t use fuel at all. But the cars still require the same amount of road, the same amount of bitumen, or maybe even more since cars are heavier and faster now. We can’t extract oil just to make bitumen. That’s not economical. We primarily extract oil to get the fuel we need, and we get a certain amount of bitumen as a by-product. Our parents generation was lucky that oil was practically pouring out of the ground..

TheOtherHobbes 5y ago
Schrodinger's Market Economy. This is the most prosperous, generous, and advanced civilisation ever, with the largest number of billionaires. But most people who are younger than Boomers are poorer than their parents, and public infrastructure and public services have somehow become unaffordable.
bryanlarsen 5y ago
Bitumen is such an insignificant portion of the price of a road that it can increase in price an order of magnitude with no noticable effect on the road price. It would have an even smaller effect on road maintenance costs.
LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
Let's use Carbocrete, made of co² sucked out of the air, powered by advanced high temperature fission or fusion. Mixed with remolten desert sand if need be, which is otherwise unusable.

White_Wolf 5y ago

That is not entirely true. Try comparing how many minimum wage paychecks you needed to buy a house then and with how many you need now and what is took to build a house (including permits and land) and what it takes now. It will be different form country to country and the tech level was lower but the majority of the young ones these days will neven own (paid morgage) a house by the time they are 35.

syshum 5y ago
While housing is extremely over priced right now, it is also important to note that a "standard home" has changed ALOT. My Grandparents raised 4 children in a 2 bedroom 1 bath 900 square foot home, which was a "standard home" in the 40/50's Today the standard home is 2x the size with more bathrooms, and larger lots. This is a source of alot of the problems as well. When developers build a subdivision they are not building small homes, they are building 4 bedroom, 3 bath, 2,000 square foot homes Overall The World Is Becoming a Better Place [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4J5s6aZCPSg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4J5s6aZCPSg
- theelous3 5y ago
  To add to this: larger houses and plots hav the knock on effect of making under street piping need to be x3 or even x4 times longer to span the frontage, and have more complex outputs, and be larger with higher pressures - same but inverse for waste lines and their inputs. Same for electric lines, and those lines have to carry _way_ more power. And Internet cabling, and road surface standards are higher, blah blah forever. Size and modernity makes this not scale so linearly The debt of modern development is higher than the debt of the previous cycles.
- ElFitz 5y ago
  Really depends who you ask and where they live. Home sizes in Paris haven’t changed much over the past 50 years. Yet, prices have exploded. Heck, they’ve skyrocketed. For the exact same thing. Only a bit older. New apartments, no bigger but built in the suburbs, far from the subway (and not close to the regional trains) cost the same as the old ones of the same size did in Paris 10 years ago (and they were already priced crazily). With the same numbers of bathrooms but no job that could enable one to afford such a place less than 45 minutes away. The 2.000sqft 3 bathrooms home with a lawn appears to be a very American thing.