4 ms·

It seems to have a lot of incredibly ill defined, unscientific, unproven, and frankly racist and divisive ideas if you ask me. Any criticism or request for evid

It seems to have a lot of incredibly ill defined, unscientific, unproven, and frankly racist and divisive ideas if you ask me. Any criticism or request for evidence, logic, or results is met with wildly disproportionate reactions from bullying at worst to strawmen very often, but rarely actual answers or willingness to discuss things openly. Recently I've noticed the theme is to post purile edicts proclaiming that CRT is "just acknowledging that racism exists and is bad" (and therefore if you question it or this post, then you're a racist). But no, that's a lie. That's not what CRT is, it absolutely should be critically examined and questioned.

lunatuna 5y ago
With the above, it doesn’t make sense to be teaching this at a grade school level and would be expected to be introduced in late high school and more thoroughly in college. As and ideology it would be good to introduce when one is reading Adam Smith, Marx and Mussolini. But I think a lot of the concern is that CRT isn’t being taught as an ideology amongst others, but it is being employed as the underlying “unseen” lens that is being applied to all aspects of curriculum and the classroom. I also think CRT like a lot of more modern movements lacks a central authority that then allows the practitioners to take it in all sorts of directions that may or may not have been intended. You can see in many CRT zealots that race predetermines everything. Like when talking to a Marxist. Everything is understood if you just apply the right lens. If only the world was so simple. Like so much of education it is just another passing fad applied badly. My concern is that the opportunity to make the needed change is going to be missed due the extremes fighting and not getting to meaningful improvements.
- woofie11 5y ago
  And if you go to school in a Christian community, Christianity will be the unseen lens that underlies the curriculum. And so on with any other culture. It's not ideal, but it is what is. CRT is a helpful lens, much like Marxism, Smith-style capitalism, and many other lenses. Like all of those, it has its limits. I want my kids to have as many lenses as possible, and to be able to use them critically. I'll mention -- even elementary school kids have no problems understanding these lenses. I'd argue Smith, CRT, and Marx ought to be taught around 3rd-5th grade, not high school. My problem is CRT is being taught in kindergarten.
  - test_epsilon 5y ago
    What evidence is there that it is helpful? What measurable improvements is it responsible for? I don't agree any of those things should be taught in 3rd-5th grade because I think it is much more important to exercise the fundamentals of critical and creative thinking, logic, imagination, etc. at those ages. I also have a big problem at any level of schooling with these unscientific and unproven "theories" (if you can even call them that) being taught by people who have entirely bought into the cult thinking and have no ability to critically reason about them let alone the desire to. Would lessons about socialism and collectivism teach why the system can generally only sustain itself at a state level by devolving into a single party police state dictatorship in which the people most certainly do not own the means of production? Doubtful. Would the teaching of CRT expose it for the unproven religious-like propaganda that it is? Or would it teach the horrific hurtful and racist pseudoscientific lies about toxic whiteness or children bearing some responsibility for things done by other people due to their race? Probably the latter, right? It's like inviting a white supremacist to teach children lessons about nazism. Or a creationist to teach biology. Or a flat earther to each geology. Not a helpful lens at all.
    - woofie11 5y ago
      > I don't agree any of those things should be taught in 3rd-5th grade because I think it is much more important to exercise the fundamentals of critical and creative thinking, logic, imagination, etc. at those ages. That's exactly how you develop it. You teach complex concepts which require kids to sort truth from fiction. You don't teach one. You teach many. > I also have a big problem at any level of schooling with these unscientific and unproven "theories" (if you can even call them that) being taught by people who have entirely bought into the cult thinking and have no ability to critically reason about them let alone the desire to. I agree. > Would lessons about socialism and collectivism teach why the system can generally only sustain itself at a state level by devolving into a single party police state dictatorship in which the people most certainly do not own the means of production? Doubtful. You're generalizing an awful lot from n=1. We had the Soviet Block. That's the only time it's been tried. It'd be like evaluating liberal democracy from the French Revolution or the current collapsing Afghani government. > It's like inviting a white supremacist to teach children lessons about nazism. Or a creationist to teach biology. Or a flat earther to each geology. Not a helpful lens at all. I teach my kid those alternative theories too. I do a sincere job of it too. He doesn't believe me, in part due to other adults in his life.
desktopninja 5y ago
When one tears into "race" its really just tribalism. A "Us vs them" or "Them vs us" or even "My tribe is better than your tribe" ... petty to be perfectly honest yet somehow politics put weight behind it and now its taken as fact. Maybe we are not the smart specie we think we are.

lunatuna 5y ago

With the above, it doesn’t make sense to be teaching this at a grade school level and would be expected to be introduced in late high school and more thoroughly in college. As and ideology it would be good to introduce when one is reading Adam Smith, Marx and Mussolini. But I think a lot of the concern is that CRT isn’t being taught as an ideology amongst others, but it is being employed as the underlying “unseen” lens that is being applied to all aspects of curriculum and the classroom. I also think CRT like a lot of more modern movements lacks a central authority that then allows the practitioners to take it in all sorts of directions that may or may not have been intended. You can see in many CRT zealots that race predetermines everything. Like when talking to a Marxist. Everything is understood if you just apply the right lens. If only the world was so simple. Like so much of education it is just another passing fad applied badly. My concern is that the opportunity to make the needed change is going to be missed due the extremes fighting and not getting to meaningful improvements.

woofie11 5y ago
And if you go to school in a Christian community, Christianity will be the unseen lens that underlies the curriculum. And so on with any other culture. It's not ideal, but it is what is. CRT is a helpful lens, much like Marxism, Smith-style capitalism, and many other lenses. Like all of those, it has its limits. I want my kids to have as many lenses as possible, and to be able to use them critically. I'll mention -- even elementary school kids have no problems understanding these lenses. I'd argue Smith, CRT, and Marx ought to be taught around 3rd-5th grade, not high school. My problem is CRT is being taught in kindergarten.
- test_epsilon 5y ago
  What evidence is there that it is helpful? What measurable improvements is it responsible for? I don't agree any of those things should be taught in 3rd-5th grade because I think it is much more important to exercise the fundamentals of critical and creative thinking, logic, imagination, etc. at those ages. I also have a big problem at any level of schooling with these unscientific and unproven "theories" (if you can even call them that) being taught by people who have entirely bought into the cult thinking and have no ability to critically reason about them let alone the desire to. Would lessons about socialism and collectivism teach why the system can generally only sustain itself at a state level by devolving into a single party police state dictatorship in which the people most certainly do not own the means of production? Doubtful. Would the teaching of CRT expose it for the unproven religious-like propaganda that it is? Or would it teach the horrific hurtful and racist pseudoscientific lies about toxic whiteness or children bearing some responsibility for things done by other people due to their race? Probably the latter, right? It's like inviting a white supremacist to teach children lessons about nazism. Or a creationist to teach biology. Or a flat earther to each geology. Not a helpful lens at all.
  - woofie11 5y ago
    > I don't agree any of those things should be taught in 3rd-5th grade because I think it is much more important to exercise the fundamentals of critical and creative thinking, logic, imagination, etc. at those ages. That's exactly how you develop it. You teach complex concepts which require kids to sort truth from fiction. You don't teach one. You teach many. > I also have a big problem at any level of schooling with these unscientific and unproven "theories" (if you can even call them that) being taught by people who have entirely bought into the cult thinking and have no ability to critically reason about them let alone the desire to. I agree. > Would lessons about socialism and collectivism teach why the system can generally only sustain itself at a state level by devolving into a single party police state dictatorship in which the people most certainly do not own the means of production? Doubtful. You're generalizing an awful lot from n=1. We had the Soviet Block. That's the only time it's been tried. It'd be like evaluating liberal democracy from the French Revolution or the current collapsing Afghani government. > It's like inviting a white supremacist to teach children lessons about nazism. Or a creationist to teach biology. Or a flat earther to each geology. Not a helpful lens at all. I teach my kid those alternative theories too. I do a sincere job of it too. He doesn't believe me, in part due to other adults in his life.

desktopninja 5y ago

When one tears into "race" its really just tribalism. A "Us vs them" or "Them vs us" or even "My tribe is better than your tribe" ... petty to be perfectly honest yet somehow politics put weight behind it and now its taken as fact. Maybe we are not the smart specie we think we are.