4 ms·

This is not an impossible situation due to legalities. This is an impossible situation due to judges, ministers, officials etc unwilling to fix it! It’s just a

This is not an impossible situation due to legalities. This is an impossible situation due to judges, ministers, officials etc unwilling to fix it! It’s just a mix of malice, apathy, incompetence. Ministers and highly placed officials or even heads of the state have stepped in for lesser inconveniences. A person is in front of you - literally living and breathing - what the f else do you need to establish that person is alive!

tharkun__ 5y ago
They wouldn't deny that _a_ person is alive. They need more to establish the fact that this is actually the person they claim to be. This is way different for the bank teller that's known her for 30 years. They know who's standing in front of them (presumably). Way different for someone that's never met this person. The bar is higher. These guys would would want more than just the one bank teller to affidavit that this actually is the person that all records show is actually deceased. Depending on country and their bureaucracy (she does seem to be in France, so ...) this could be quite hard.
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  It doesn't seem like it should be that hard. We do it routinely. My kids have passports, and what did they have to prove they were alive and who I claimed them to be? Their birth certificate, and a sworn statement by me. It should be fairly simple to get an equivalent. A sworn statement by her husband, perhaps. Her mother, if still alive. Or heck, by now there might be biological records that can be matched up (e.g. dental). This should be a fairly easy procedural fix.
  - brendoelfrendo 5y ago
    Well, consider: someone who is documented as dead appears with a birth certificate. Do you a) assume that this person is the (presumably) deceased person, or b) assume that a living person is trying to steal a deceased person's identity? The problem is that we're really poorly equipped to handle problems of identity. It's hard to prove that you are you, absent documentation. Documentation usually issued by a government, or by a private agency on behalf of a government. And if that government thinks you're dead, well, all that documentation is worth about as much as the paper it's printed on. Short of, say, a dental, medical or DNA match, then yeah, this is a really hard procedural fix.
    - pteraspidomorph 5y ago
      EU countries have real ID with biometrics though...
      - thefounder 5y ago
        I believe biometrics were required only recently.
        rebuilder 5y ago
        It's been a requirement longer than the three years this woman has been officually dead. Of course, perhaps she didn't have a passport before
        brendoelfrendo 5y ago
        From the article, she found out she was dead when she tried to get a passport.
        rebuilder 5y ago
        Yes. EU passports are valid for 5 years AFAIK. The article doesn't say whether she previously held a passport or not.
    - tharkun__ 5y ago
      Yep exactly. That's why I mentioned the country :) As the in-between poster mentioned, he routinely does it with his kids. I presume he's in a country where this is easier then. That's why I mentioned France vs. being somewhere else. Here in Canada I could believe for example that this might be easier (though I have nothing but conjecture). I say that because I do know that getting your papers for the very first time "all" you need is for two persons that are already Canadian citizens to affidavit that they've known you for at least 2 years (IIRC) and that they think you are who you claim you are. On top of like your birth certificate. But thats not necessarily Canadian and not sure how much that can or will be checked. I know from some colleague who is Vietnamese, born somewhere in China while fleeing, who had no birth certificate and doesn't know his actual birth day (just roughly the year), never mind where he was born exactly. When he wanted to do something that required a birth certificate a Chinese co-worker offered to "talk to a guy" and "get him a birth certificate". I presume France lies on the other end of the spectrum :)
  - kjaftaedi 5y ago
    The idea that if I feel like it I can just go walk up to a court and claim to be a dead person and they just have to accept it if I get someone to vouch for me is silly. Sure it's easy, I'll give you that. The identity thieves would have a heyday cleaning out estates and running up credit until someone made it difficult again to assume someone else's identity.
    - rootusrootus 5y ago
      Please don't be disingenuous. I suggested we could do it the same way we do it now. It's a chain-of-trust issue, and not just anyone would be able to vouch for you.

tharkun__ 5y ago

They wouldn't deny that _a_ person is alive. They need more to establish the fact that this is actually the person they claim to be. This is way different for the bank teller that's known her for 30 years. They know who's standing in front of them (presumably). Way different for someone that's never met this person. The bar is higher. These guys would would want more than just the one bank teller to affidavit that this actually is the person that all records show is actually deceased. Depending on country and their bureaucracy (she does seem to be in France, so ...) this could be quite hard.

rootusrootus 5y ago
It doesn't seem like it should be that hard. We do it routinely. My kids have passports, and what did they have to prove they were alive and who I claimed them to be? Their birth certificate, and a sworn statement by me. It should be fairly simple to get an equivalent. A sworn statement by her husband, perhaps. Her mother, if still alive. Or heck, by now there might be biological records that can be matched up (e.g. dental). This should be a fairly easy procedural fix.
- brendoelfrendo 5y ago
  Well, consider: someone who is documented as dead appears with a birth certificate. Do you a) assume that this person is the (presumably) deceased person, or b) assume that a living person is trying to steal a deceased person's identity? The problem is that we're really poorly equipped to handle problems of identity. It's hard to prove that you are you, absent documentation. Documentation usually issued by a government, or by a private agency on behalf of a government. And if that government thinks you're dead, well, all that documentation is worth about as much as the paper it's printed on. Short of, say, a dental, medical or DNA match, then yeah, this is a really hard procedural fix.
  - pteraspidomorph 5y ago
    EU countries have real ID with biometrics though...
    - thefounder 5y ago
      I believe biometrics were required only recently.
      - rebuilder 5y ago
        It's been a requirement longer than the three years this woman has been officually dead. Of course, perhaps she didn't have a passport before
        brendoelfrendo 5y ago
        From the article, she found out she was dead when she tried to get a passport.
        rebuilder 5y ago
        Yes. EU passports are valid for 5 years AFAIK. The article doesn't say whether she previously held a passport or not.
  - tharkun__ 5y ago
    Yep exactly. That's why I mentioned the country :) As the in-between poster mentioned, he routinely does it with his kids. I presume he's in a country where this is easier then. That's why I mentioned France vs. being somewhere else. Here in Canada I could believe for example that this might be easier (though I have nothing but conjecture). I say that because I do know that getting your papers for the very first time "all" you need is for two persons that are already Canadian citizens to affidavit that they've known you for at least 2 years (IIRC) and that they think you are who you claim you are. On top of like your birth certificate. But thats not necessarily Canadian and not sure how much that can or will be checked. I know from some colleague who is Vietnamese, born somewhere in China while fleeing, who had no birth certificate and doesn't know his actual birth day (just roughly the year), never mind where he was born exactly. When he wanted to do something that required a birth certificate a Chinese co-worker offered to "talk to a guy" and "get him a birth certificate". I presume France lies on the other end of the spectrum :)
- kjaftaedi 5y ago
  The idea that if I feel like it I can just go walk up to a court and claim to be a dead person and they just have to accept it if I get someone to vouch for me is silly. Sure it's easy, I'll give you that. The identity thieves would have a heyday cleaning out estates and running up credit until someone made it difficult again to assume someone else's identity.
  - rootusrootus 5y ago
    Please don't be disingenuous. I suggested we could do it the same way we do it now. It's a chain-of-trust issue, and not just anyone would be able to vouch for you.