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Being a Pakistani (and Punjabi) American myself, I do not agree with some of the views the author puts forward. First, Pakistanis do define themselves primaril

• aniket_ray 15y ago
  Could you cite something about your assertion that Indian Muslims have had a raw deal? I have only one data point Azim Premji, who is one of the richest Indians and is a Muslim. I've heard that in some rural areas, banks do give loans on religious lines i.e. Banks in some muslim predominant areas only give loans to muslims and in some Hindu predominant areas to only hindus. Though I heard that the government is trying to curb this. Personally, a lot of it seems to be anti-Indian propaganda. In India, our media tells us that such anti-India propaganda is quite common in Pakistani media. (Yes, I understand the dichotomy that I am dependent on Indian media for a lot of my raw data)
  • qasar 15y ago
    Its only anecdotal, my brother in law is an Indian Muslim from UP. He says the 1-2 blow of being a communal society and being the largest minority doesn't create the best situation. Minorities getting the short end of the stick in terms of education and opportunities isn't exclusive to India (see the US - arguably the best nation on the planet for minorities that still stuggles with this), its just a more central topic because of the sub continent's partition history.
    • dimmuborgir 15y ago
      Except politically and militarily, Indian Muslims have outperformed Pakistani/Bangladeshi Muslims in all fields. Just take as fundamental as literacy rate. Indian Muslims have better literacy rate (59%) than Pakistani Muslims (50-55%).
    • badclient 15y ago
      If you want to go on anecdotes, my larger fam is happily Indian(from UP even) and Muslim. Sure there is crazy poverty across India but I haven't seen anything that shows it being greater because of a larger conspiracy against Muslims in India. Over the years, I've observed more and more of my Pakistani friends sound hopeless when speaking about their country. This is a distinct change from a few years ago when they would speak with nothing but pride. It's humbling and sad to look at the state of Pakistan as an outsider.
  • yummyfajitas 15y ago
    I'm just a visitor here, but I can believe that Indian Muslims may have a raw deal in some areas. In professional Mumbai or Delhi society, no one seems to care much. You are a banker, a lawyer or a programmer. For the most part, you get your job or start your business via your own professional connections. Personal and professional life is separated very much like it is in the west. Outside of this fairly narrow circle, family/family friends/clannish identity is more or less merged with your professional identity. Want to start a business? There is a good chance you share a last name with your investors and business partners. Want a bank loan? Better be connected to the loan officer. It's also helpful if you are connected to the various government workers who's permission you will need to start your business [1], and you'll get better service if your supplier is your second cousin. The value of your network is a superlinear function of it's size. If Muslims have a smaller network, they are probably disadvantaged. [1] I recently met a guy who wanted to start a business selling eye tracking devices. He scrapped the idea because he needed 34 licenses.
• null_para 15y ago
  Minority in Hindu majority ruinous? Our last president was not Hindu. By the way, He is one of the most celebrated intellectual in India. Some of the most popular actors/actresses in Bollywood are not Hindu. People like Azim Premji are not Hindu. I can cite many more such examples. I have bunch of my friends who are not Hindus and asked about situation like partition once again, they always say they will choose India come what may. The whole idea of our neighboring country is based on the myth that in Hindu majority country no other religion can flourish. On contrary, every other religion flourished in India but same cannot be said about our neighbors. Edit: Cleaned few grammatical errors
  • microarchitect 15y ago
    Just to add this, I'd like to point out that the OP fails to consider the fate of the Mohajirs in Pakistan. It doesn't seem like migrating to Pakistan from India worked out all that well for them. There is no doubt that Muslims in India lag behind on developmental metrics, but I sincerely doubt this is due to any large-scale systematic discrimination against them. Sure, there is a fair bit of casual "micro-discrimination" against Muslims but that happens to a LOT of demographic groups in a huge and diverse country like India. This might be an unpopular and politically incorrect view, but I believe that the thing that is holding back Indian Muslims and (perhaps Muslims elsewhere) is their religion. Believing that women shouldn't step out of the house alone, or that women should wear a burqa all the time or that several important formative years of a child's life should be spent studying the Quran or an insistence on studying Arabic and Urdu instead of the local language are IMHO not conducive to succeeding in a cut-throat capitalist economy. My unscientific survey of successful Muslims that I know leads me to believe that the most successful ones are not that religious. However, the OP makes a good point that Hindu fundamentalism might be polarizing opinions in the country. Unfortunately, you can get away with being a Hindu fundamentalist in India, but being a Muslim fundamentalist mostly leads to career suicide.
• dimmuborgir 15y ago
  1. You seem to be one of those few liberal/secular Pakistanis living abroad. A vast majority of Pakistanis, in the attempt to justify the existence of their country, try everything to distance themselves from India, Indian culture and Indian history. 2. Agreed that there was mass migration both ways. But consider these things. Islam is the fastest growing religion in India and Muslims make up ~15% of Indian population today, whereas in Pakistan minority population has fallen from ~15% to less than ~2% since independence. 3. Predicted correctly? How do you prove that Indian Muslims are living worse than Pakistanis? A couple of communal riots in India don't prove anything, considering how big India is. Whereas, the daily bombings, drone attacks, ethnic riots in Pakistan don't give encouraging picture about Pakistani Muslims, the very bunch for whom the country was created. And as I said in another comment below: "Except politically and militarily, Indian Muslims have outperformed Pakistani/Bangladeshi Muslims in all fields. Just take as fundamental as literacy rate. Indian Muslims have better literacy rate (59%) than Pakistani Muslims (50-55%)." To add to that, the richest Muslim in the world is Ajim Premji, an Indian software mogul, not some oil sheikh.
  • kgthegreat 15y ago
    > Ajim Premji, an Indian software mogul, not some oil sheikh Well, Wipro(Western India Vegetable Products Limited) did start out as manufacturing vegetable fats and oil among other things. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wipro#History http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wipro#History Does that count as an oil business? I kid. :)
• skbohra123 15y ago
  Most of the successful film stars in India are muslim. Dilip Kumar, Madhubala, Shahrukh Khan, Salman Khan, Javed Akthar, and the list is long. Bollywood represents India in most of the world and Bollywood is dominated by Muslims. Something to think about.
• braindead_in 15y ago
  To know why Indian Muslims have been left out you have to go into the colonial history of India. It all started with the 1857 rebellion, The Sepoy Mutiny. The rebellion was primarily started by the Muslims soldiers with support from Hindus. After the rebellion was quelled the Britishers ostracized the Muslims and the Hindus were given preferential treatment. All the best Civil Service jobs, the licenses, etc. went to Hindus. Hindus had better access to education compared to Muslims. After independence the bureaucracy continued this discrimination. (As an aside, this was one of the reasons why Muslims flourished in Arts; Bollywood being a good example). The trend however has largely been reversed because of vote bank politics. The political parties today are trying to woo the Muslims (and Dalits) as best as they can. The ruling political party, Congress is viewed as pro-Muslim. The Economic liberalization has also opened up the possibilities for Indian Muslims. The corporations do not discriminate when it comes to a customer. Indian Muslims have the same access to loans and credit as the Hindus (and all other religious groups). Schools don't care about religion as long as somebody can cover the tuition fees. As an anecdote, in Bangalore majority of auto-rickshaw (three wheeler transport) drivers are uneducated Muslims. But their kids all go to English medium schools, not Madrassas. Rural India however is still divided along communal and caste lines. Caste and religion play a huge social and economic part of the rural fabric and change there is slow. But the Muslims there are as discriminated against as the Dalits, if not more.
• ajays 15y ago
  I am sorry, but I have to disagree strongly with the assertion that Indian Muslims have suffered under "majority" rule. First of all: 3 of the first 11 presidents in India were Muslim. Muslims continue to do well in many spheres of life: all of the top Bollywood actors are Muslim. At one time, the richest Indian was a Muslim (he's come down a few notches because of the Ambani brothers), and he rose up through entrepreneurship and hard work. I believe this fabrication (that Indian Muslims are worse off today) is parroted too often in Pakistan, because it reinforces the belief that creation of Pakistan was the right thing to do. Pakistani textbooks are full of such distortions, as reported in a Pakistani paper recently: http://tribune.com.pk/story/149448/our-textbooks-and-the-lies-they-teach/ http://tribune.com.pk/story/149448/our-textbooks-and-the-lie... . And here's a report [PDF] by a Pakistani NGO which goes into great detail about the anti-Hindu bias in Pakistani K-12 tectbooks: http://sdpi.org/sdpi-old/whats_new/reporton/State%20of%20Curr&TextBooks.pdf http://sdpi.org/sdpi-old/whats_new/reporton/State%20of%20Cur... I grew up in India. And while I'll admit that there was some animosity towards Muslims, there was similar animosity towards other large groups too. This is to be expected in any poor society where people are competing for scant resources. There was no systemic bias against Muslims just because they're Muslims.
  • Zarar 15y ago
    The President in India is a figurehead. No real power. How many PMs have been Muslim? Chief ministers? Riiigh. > top Bollywood actors are Muslim How is this an indication of how good Muslims are? This is like saying most athletes in the US are black, so African Americans are doing great in America. > "some animosity towards Muslims" Selective memory here.
    • ajays 15y ago
      "> "some animosity towards Muslims" Selective memory here." You can believe whatever you want to believe, and nothing I can say will probably change your mind, because that's the world view that was drilled into you since birth. But let me give you some more examples: - One of the most popular shrines in my state (Rajasthan) is a Muslim shrine, that of Khwaja Sahib in Ajmer. And yet the vast majority of the visitors there are Hindu, who come to seek the blessings of a long-departed Muslim saint. - My father was born in a tiny village. There is only 1 place of worship: the shrine of a Muslim saint. Half the village is Hindu; the other half is Muslim. But both pray in that same 1-room shrine (not at the same time, though), in their own ways. The Muslims place a "chadar" (thin fabric sheets); the Hindus burn incense and place flowers. - In the town where my father grew up, the biggest temple and the biggest mosque share a common building wall (they are back-to-back). And finally: every Pakistani I've met who visited India for a length of time, came away impressed at how open and free the society was. Take that for what it's worth. As for the Bollywood actors: Bollywood is a popularity contest (unlike athletics, which is objective). It is the people who decide who's a "popular" actor, and not the actor himself. So your comparison with African-American athletes is specious.
• indian_m 15y ago
  Could not resist, creating a throw away account, just for replying to a topic, which is very close to my heart. About me: I am a liberal in world view, but a practicing Muslim. And not nationalistic, but love India and what it represents. Brother, your note is well thought out and well meaning. The idea of a "West India" is very novel. And it appeals to me. But at the same time, I would like to give a sense to you of what its like to be an Indian Muslim of the upper class, in response to your "...being a minority in a Hindu majority India ultimately would have a ruinous effects on Indian Muslims". On Prejudice: It will be a falsity to say, that there is no prejudice at all. As obviously India is not a utopia. But also, suffice to say, that the majority of the people (and that would naturally be more Hindus than others) one encounters in life are very secular and welcoming. And by and large India is a meritocracy. The Muslims suffer more, because of their own backward cultural mind set than anything else. For example, lots of relatives who are not doing well in life would complain about prejudice in job selections, etc. for not doing so well in life. But its very apparent to me, that the fault lies more with their attitudes towards life - not wanting to put enough hard work. On Government/Establishment's attitude to secularism: I am actually utmost thankful, to the founding fathers of the nation like Gandhi and Nehru, that they did not cast the nation as a tit-for-tat reflection of the way Pakistan was founded. By and large, India is a secular nation, and that notion is oft repeated and maintained by media, politicians and the like. I can safely say, that being a Muslim in India is perhaps 1000 times better than being a Hindu in Pakistan. On representation of Muslims in various domains: There are countless examples: To cite a few random people: in the business world Azim Premji (founder of Wipro) is one of the most respected. The bollywood is totally dominated by the Khans (so much so that one popular movie 'The Wednesday' had a joke on a Hindu actor belonging to the 'minority' hence needing more protection). Sports: India is Cricket Crazy, like Pakistan, and in the past few years, 2-3 Muslims have been making the 11 (which is more than the %age of Muslim population in India). And since I am randomly giving examples, I can as well cite myself (a hacker news reading, tech geek, aspiring to change the world (at least India) using programming ...think we will all agree is not any less of an aspiration than aspiring to be a movie star :-) ) In fact I would go ahead and say, that had Pakistan not being created, the position of Muslims in the region, would have been all the more stronger. Even after creation of Pakistan on the basis of religion, by and large Muslims are very welcome in a pluralistic society that India is. So what if, if the poet Iqbal, had dreamt that dream of his a bit more inclusively. But yes, things can be better. There is a right wing here as well (liberal Americans should immediately think of GOP), and they want to pander to the extremists sentiments and every decade or so things get out of hand (most recent being Gujarat 2002). So yes, honestly, there are problems. I think, the model for India, for establishing a just and civil society within, should be like that of the USA. America has a history of committing mistakes, Slavery and the treatment of the black people. But they came out of it so strongly within such a short period of time. Thanks partly to great people like Martin Luther King. So India, also has a choice. Just like every nation has a choice all the time. By and large it has done very well. But it needs to keep doing well. And lastly, I wish, you Pakistanis also all the best. Peace. Edit: Fixed a grammar error.
• drieddust 15y ago
  oh really muslims are a minority and handled badly in INDIA,infact handling is so bad that: * Pilgrimage to Mecca is subsidized by Indian Goverment. * Imam freely talks in support of terrorists. * Every company offers prayer rooms and allows time to pray. They do not make Temples or allow hindus to take a leave for going to Temples. * Muslims freely block national highway on eid to show the strength in the name of offering prayer. * Muslim population is on the rise and India has got more Muslims than Pakistan.
• rohit_kanwar 15y ago
  I have heard that most of the rich Muslims in India, and many middle-class ones, migrated to Pakistan in 1947. But among the poor, only a small number were able to migrate. As a result, in the post-Independence India, a disproportionately large number of Muslims were poor. However, I believe this is only true for areas near the border. For people who lived far away from the border, it was difficult to emigrate, and so most of the stayed put. For example, Azim Premji, India's richest Muslim, is from Hyderabad, which is far from the India-Pakistan border. However, it is also true that there is some discrimination against Muslims in India. I've seen it first-hand (I'm nominally a Hindu). However, you probably hear an exaggerated version of it in Pakistan. And, we non-muslim Indians also discriminate against each other: rich vs poor, north Indians vs south Indians, native people of a state vs people from out-of-state, etc. So, the experience is not unique to Muslims.
• known 15y ago
  if Caste == Religion there is no Hinduism