4 ms·

You're gonna need to back that up with legal text (by which I mean a lawyer's interpretation matching yours).

teddyh 5y ago
IANAL, but I’d start here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meeting_of_the_minds https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meeting_of_the_minds
- dataflow 5y ago
  Yeah, that's not gonna fly, sorry. I've wished the contract world worked that way, but my understanding has been it doesn't, and you're gonna need a lawyer's interpretation matching yours to back up your claim, not your own interpretation of a link to Wikipedia.
  - teddyh 5y ago
    You’re being very dismissive and condescending when your link does not back up your claim either, from what I could tell. Also, from what I understand, this kind of thing varies from place to place. You might be correct about your own situation, but not about mine.
    - dataflow 5y ago
      Wow. I said you need a lawyer's interpretation. You just left me a 5-second link to Wikipedia and yet I'm the one who's condescending? I'm not going to put any more effort into my comments than you are, except I'll leave one more link in case it's helpful and leave this at that: https://toslawyer.com/are-end-user-license-agreements-enforceable/ https://toslawyer.com/are-end-user-license-agreements-enforc... P.S.: This is obviously all about the US; if you're arguing about another country then we're speaking past each other rather pointlessly.
      - teddyh 5y ago
        Here’s a link for you: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/enforcing-gpl https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/enforcing-gpl Eben Moglen is professor of law and legal history at Columbia University Law School.
belorn 5y ago
(Jumping into the discussion with an example) Let's say a person buys a train ticket from A to B, let say from Brussels Airport to Brussels Central Station. The ticket states that in order to be valid, you need to pay a second fee, a special fee because this is the airport transportation route. The person refuses and goes onto the train anyway. What crime did the person commit? A ticket violation or Fare dodging? You get a similar situation when it comes to parking. If a person has a valid parking ticket but are parking when they are cleaning the street (i.e. during a no-parking period), the violation is not a parking ticket violation. It is a parking violation, just like any other parking without permission. The fact that the person has an ticket doesn't change anything. Breach of contract against the ticket holder is very unlikely. Breach of contract against the ticket seller is possible. In the end, the most likely outcome of a person without a valid ticket is that they get treated exactly the same as a person without a ticket at all.
- dataflow 5y ago
  I can't really tell if you're agreeing or disagreeing, and I'm not even sure a ticket violation is a "crime"? But regardless, I don't understand the need to stretch analogies from other domains when there is so much case law out there specifically about EULAs. I'm pretty sure it's well-established [1] that EULAs can be enforceable contracts and breach of them can be treated as a breach of contract. This doesn't depend on there being copyright violations, e.g. there can be different licenses depending on commercial usage vs. non-commercial usage despite the copying being done in exactly the same manner. There should be no need to draw analogies from fare dodging to see what the law says here. I find countless links on this when Googling (and I'm basically leaving a different link in each comment), but see for example [1]. [1] https://www.mondaq.com/unitedstates/licensing-syndication/849364/covenant-or-condition-when-can-a-licensor-sue-its-licensee-for-copyright-infringement https://www.mondaq.com/unitedstates/licensing-syndication/84...
  - belorn 5y ago
    An EULA is not a copyright license, nor does it give permission. The practice of EULA comes from Shrink wrap contracts, i.e. a contract that dictate how a product is used after a person have physically bought it. The origin of those are Standard form contracts. One major difference between copyright law and contract law is that one is defined under international agreement, and the other is defined by each nation. There is no Berne Convention for contracts and EULA's. There is no obligation between nation to recognize EULA "rights".

IANAL, but I’d start here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meeting_of_the_minds https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meeting_of_the_minds

dataflow 5y ago
Yeah, that's not gonna fly, sorry. I've wished the contract world worked that way, but my understanding has been it doesn't, and you're gonna need a lawyer's interpretation matching yours to back up your claim, not your own interpretation of a link to Wikipedia.
- teddyh 5y ago
  You’re being very dismissive and condescending when your link does not back up your claim either, from what I could tell. Also, from what I understand, this kind of thing varies from place to place. You might be correct about your own situation, but not about mine.
  - dataflow 5y ago
    Wow. I said you need a lawyer's interpretation. You just left me a 5-second link to Wikipedia and yet I'm the one who's condescending? I'm not going to put any more effort into my comments than you are, except I'll leave one more link in case it's helpful and leave this at that: https://toslawyer.com/are-end-user-license-agreements-enforceable/ https://toslawyer.com/are-end-user-license-agreements-enforc... P.S.: This is obviously all about the US; if you're arguing about another country then we're speaking past each other rather pointlessly.
    - teddyh 5y ago
      Here’s a link for you: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/enforcing-gpl https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/enforcing-gpl Eben Moglen is professor of law and legal history at Columbia University Law School.

belorn 5y ago

(Jumping into the discussion with an example) Let's say a person buys a train ticket from A to B, let say from Brussels Airport to Brussels Central Station. The ticket states that in order to be valid, you need to pay a second fee, a special fee because this is the airport transportation route. The person refuses and goes onto the train anyway. What crime did the person commit? A ticket violation or Fare dodging? You get a similar situation when it comes to parking. If a person has a valid parking ticket but are parking when they are cleaning the street (i.e. during a no-parking period), the violation is not a parking ticket violation. It is a parking violation, just like any other parking without permission. The fact that the person has an ticket doesn't change anything. Breach of contract against the ticket holder is very unlikely. Breach of contract against the ticket seller is possible. In the end, the most likely outcome of a person without a valid ticket is that they get treated exactly the same as a person without a ticket at all.

dataflow 5y ago
I can't really tell if you're agreeing or disagreeing, and I'm not even sure a ticket violation is a "crime"? But regardless, I don't understand the need to stretch analogies from other domains when there is so much case law out there specifically about EULAs. I'm pretty sure it's well-established [1] that EULAs can be enforceable contracts and breach of them can be treated as a breach of contract. This doesn't depend on there being copyright violations, e.g. there can be different licenses depending on commercial usage vs. non-commercial usage despite the copying being done in exactly the same manner. There should be no need to draw analogies from fare dodging to see what the law says here. I find countless links on this when Googling (and I'm basically leaving a different link in each comment), but see for example [1]. [1] https://www.mondaq.com/unitedstates/licensing-syndication/849364/covenant-or-condition-when-can-a-licensor-sue-its-licensee-for-copyright-infringement https://www.mondaq.com/unitedstates/licensing-syndication/84...
- belorn 5y ago
  An EULA is not a copyright license, nor does it give permission. The practice of EULA comes from Shrink wrap contracts, i.e. a contract that dictate how a product is used after a person have physically bought it. The origin of those are Standard form contracts. One major difference between copyright law and contract law is that one is defined under international agreement, and the other is defined by each nation. There is no Berne Convention for contracts and EULA's. There is no obligation between nation to recognize EULA "rights".