9 ms·

Why My Father Hated India

241 points by watchandwait 15y ago

vamsee 15y ago
Interesting, but not relevant.
- ujjvala 15y ago
  I agree.
- deleted 15y ago
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  - vamsee 15y ago
    Can you point me where it implies interesting == relevant? This post is geo-political, pure and simple. And I don't see why it belongs on HN.
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  - tansey 15y ago
    > Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. What is the new phenomenon of which this article is evidence?
    - cooldeal 15y ago
      Most != All The benchmark seems to be if it's intellectually stimulating, which this one seems to be.
- product50 15y ago
  It doesn't get upvoted and be featured on the top page of Hacker News if people are not finding it useful. Hacker News is not a website to be defined by you on what is interesting and what is relevant. You are just one of thousands of people visiting this site and it will stay like that - if you find that non-interesting, it is irrelevant.
  - vamsee 15y ago
    Oh, why the venom? I'm an Indian, and I personally found it interesting (though it tells me nothing new) but I find it irrelevant to what HN is. Like I mentioned in the reply above, geo-political news is irrelevant to HN discussion unless it has a direct bearing upon startups/programming. I miss the link here.
    - dimmuborgir 15y ago
      I don't see what the fuss is about. A lot of seemingly offtopics have been discussed on HN recently. Like, Japan earthquakes, Osama Bin Laden death, Egypt/Libya civil wars etc.
      - burgerbrain 15y ago
        Yes, that is why the fuss. Some of us do not appreciate the trend.
    - maw 15y ago
      See http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html, first section. It may not have been news to you, but some of it was news to me. And definitely interesting.
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zmanji 15y ago
Has there ever been a case where defining yourself as a negative of something resulted in a success?
- iqster 15y ago
  We Canadians pride ourselves as not being Americans ;-)
jkic47 15y ago
The article was unexpectedly heart wrenching to read. India takes its very name from the Indus valley that lies in Pakistan, while the most famous example of Islamic architecture is the Taj Mahal in India. It is sad watching the two countries' governments waste time, energy and lives in a conflict that is essentially at a stalemate.
- sliverstorm 15y ago
  Perhaps a stalemate has simply been deemed better than losing? After all, it is far better to throw away endless lives than let your neighbor have what you can't have.
- kloncks 15y ago
  Absolutely agree. Too many conflicts come from sides that focus on their few differences rather than their many similarities. This is coming from an Egyptian who realizes that Israelis (and Jews) aren't so different from my Arab Muslim self. Now, if only more people agreed.
  - 4J7z0Fgt63dTZbs 15y ago
    They are agitated by the difference not because it's vast and deterring, but it's subtle, persistent and it slaps them in their face when they let their guards down.
  - netcan 15y ago
    It's interesting that you bring us (Israelis) up in this context. About ten years ago I was talking to a Pakistani who proudly said to me that Israel and Pakistan are the two "homeland states." I had never thought about that. Anyway, if you want agreement, I can offer one vote.
- drats 15y ago
  It's worth noting the Taj Mahal and other Mughal architecture is not just Islamic though.[1] [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mughal_architecture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mughal_architecture
- 15y ago
programmerx 15y ago
I will probably get downvoted but articles like these do not belong on HN. This is just a propaganda article from the Indians, to make Pakistanis look bad. Now there will be propaganda articles from the Pakistanis next, to make Indians look bad. To pass propaganda is very normal for these two third world countries, they have faught 3 wars since independence in the last 60 years and still half the population in both countries live in poverty.
qasar 15y ago
Being a Pakistani (and Punjabi) American myself, I do not agree with some of the views the author puts forward. First, Pakistanis do define themselves primarily as 'non-Indians'. However, the view that Pakistan has somehow carved out a new identity is the past 60 years is false. 5,000 years of shared heredity, language, customs and political history don't shake off that easily. Even Pakistanis and their relationship to religion is very similar to Indian Hindus and their relationship to Hinduism. Just as there are extremist groups in Pakistan, there are extremist Hindus in India. Pakistani's are more Indian that they want to believe and vice versa - especially if you live in the West where the two groups meld together indistinguishably. The second point I disagree with is that minorities left only Pakistan (because of communal violence). History shows that there was a reciprocal exodus of Indian Muslims to Pakistan. Communal violence is one of the defining aspects of the sub continent. Lastly, many of the poets, philosophers and British bureaucrats did predict one thing correctly - being a minority in a Hindu majority India ultimately would have a ruinous effects on Indian Muslims - formerly some of the most educated and economically prosperous citizens of India. South Asian culture is one of rabid communalism and today Indian Muslims are less educated, less wealth and less politically represented than in any part of India's long history. Sometimes I wonder what impact it would have had on both sides of the border if the new nation had been called "West India".
- aniket_ray 15y ago
  Could you cite something about your assertion that Indian Muslims have had a raw deal? I have only one data point Azim Premji, who is one of the richest Indians and is a Muslim. I've heard that in some rural areas, banks do give loans on religious lines i.e. Banks in some muslim predominant areas only give loans to muslims and in some Hindu predominant areas to only hindus. Though I heard that the government is trying to curb this. Personally, a lot of it seems to be anti-Indian propaganda. In India, our media tells us that such anti-India propaganda is quite common in Pakistani media. (Yes, I understand the dichotomy that I am dependent on Indian media for a lot of my raw data)
  - qasar 15y ago
    Its only anecdotal, my brother in law is an Indian Muslim from UP. He says the 1-2 blow of being a communal society and being the largest minority doesn't create the best situation. Minorities getting the short end of the stick in terms of education and opportunities isn't exclusive to India (see the US - arguably the best nation on the planet for minorities that still stuggles with this), its just a more central topic because of the sub continent's partition history.
rajpaul 15y ago
this conflict is a waste of human capital. i hope the fog of ignorance is lifted very soon and the desire for profit brings people together.
Zarar 15y ago
The author had daddy issues. BTW, what is this article even doing on HN? My take: Kashmir == root cause. Fix that first, grant independence.
- wisty 15y ago
  People don't question 2 or 3 China articles a day. It's refreshing to see something written about another big developing country or (in this case, two).
  - ammarkalim 15y ago
    hahah....daddy issues...FTW!!!
g123g 15y ago
Very good and balanced article overall. The hatred of each other has become so deep rooted in both the countries and the mutual suspicion so strong that it is too late that the relationship can be changed. But we still owe it our next generation to work towards peace so that the wealth that belongs to them does not get spent in keeping up the needless hostility. We cannot let the past ruin the lives of the poorest people in the world who live in this region. It is time for the Pakistani people to call a spade a spade. They cannot take refuge anymore in the filmsy excuses and their needless obsession with Kashmir anymore. If they don't do anything now and continue to behave as they have done till now for the last 60 years, it will be too late. Pakistan as a nation is literally on its last breath and it needs an immediate shock treatment by its own people if it wants to survive. India will continue to grow and survive but it is Pakistan whose survival at stake. If Pakistani people continue to behave like ostriches with their heads in sand, then they will have only themselves to blame and not any of their make believe enemies like US or India.
- nodata 15y ago
  > it is too late that the relationship can be changed What would be one of the "things" that would have to happen for this to change, even momentarily?
- akshaykarthik 15y ago
  I am Indian, and have lived in India for most of my life. I have been to nearly every state (all except Kashmir, and Oyra) and everywhere I go, it always seems like the Pakistanis' hatred is the most prevalent one. One thing I can assure you is that, despite the appearance of all of this hatred, all the Indian teens I have met have no hatred for our neighbor but rather wish the fighting would stop. Since I moved to the United States, I have had several Pakistani friends who voice the same opinions. There is no tension between the youth of the two countries (except during the Cricket World Cup). The problem is that a government full of conservative, short-sighted politicians in India, and a government, influenced by religion, blinded by hatred in Pakistan can not seem to work out their differences. Even if the consensus among Indians and Pakistanis' is to stop the fighting, not much can be done until the current regime is changed ( mostly in Pakistan ). The US's problem is that publicly, they must support Pakistan despite having no real part in the conflict between the two nations ( further increasing tensions on both sides).
known 15y ago
During Indo-Pak partition in 1947 the agreement is that all Muslim majority regions should be merged with Pakistan and all Hindu majority regions should be merged with India. India betrayed by annexing Muslim majority Kashmir and Hyderabad. UNSC passed multiple resolutions since 1948 advising India, Pakistan & China to give Independence to Kashmir, Tibet & Aksai Chin. Obsession with Kashmir is burning rest of the India.
- digamber_kamat 15y ago
  It is not buring rest of India. Also Kashmeer is a pretty much part of India and Indians love it. WE recently conducted a series of engineering workshops in Kashmeer. We were very surprised with the kind of enthusiasm the young crowd showed towards us. They were upset that because of few antisocial elements supported mostly by Pakistan they are unable to aspire their dreams like rest of the Indians. As far as legalities are concerned: http://satyameva-jayate.org/category/jammu-kashmir-related/ http://satyameva-jayate.org/category/jammu-kashmir-related/ The problem cant not be solved on this forum but the hope is Pakistan is probably breathing it's last, it will get consumed in it's own fire of hatred sooner or later.
  - known 15y ago
    Pakistan(24) is a happier nation than India(35) http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2773105 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2773105
- vankap 15y ago
  Hyderabad state had Muslim rulers but not a Muslim majority.
- dimmuborgir 15y ago
  You're a known troll who puts baseless comments on every India related posts. India didn't betray Kashmir. The king of Kashmir (Hari Singh) was a Hindu and wanted Kashmir to be an independent country. But Pakistan wanted Kashmir, so it funded insurgents against Kashmir. When the Kashmir king couldn't face them, he sought India's military help. India agreed on the condition that Kashmir should be annexed to India. The UN resolution says that India should conduct a free and fair election in the entire Kashmir to know what Kashmiris want (self determination). But for that, Pakistan should surrender its Pakistan-Administered-Kashmir to India and China should surrender Aksai Chin (if it has any population). Obsession with Kashmir is burning Pakistan more than India.
paulnelligan 15y ago
I found this article extremely interesting. If you haven't watched the 'beating retreat ceremony' video, make sure you do, it's one of the most bizarre things I've ever seen.
- copper 15y ago
  It's actually rather fun to watch in person, though I can understand why you think it's bizarre. It's, as far as I can see, really ceremonial - though it remains a big deal for the security forces personnel involved.
known 15y ago
According to https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Sachar_Committee_Report https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Sachar_Commit... report the status of Indian Muslims are below the conditions of https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Untouchables https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Untouchables
sharjeel 15y ago
Most of the people calling it off-topic are being downvoted. So let me refer to the HN Guidelines: What to Submit On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity. Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic.
DanielBMarkham 15y ago
One of the things that consistently puzzle me is how different cultures handle change. Over the past 150 years, the world has seen all kinds of terrible wars, killing hundreds of millions of people and causing all sorts of hatred and ill will. Some of these cultures get up, dust themselves off, and go on -- sometimes achieving greatness. Other cultures, sometimes with far less injustice done (if you can measure these things, which I doubt) carry grudges seemingly forever. Even in personal relations, I've known people in the states who suffered terribly by some criminal, only to have them forgive the criminal and move on with their lives. On the other hand, there are those who suffered the same thing who carry hatred in their heart until they die. I remember seeing a person on TV from Jerusalem. They were talking about how their great-great grandfather lived in a house but was evicted by the Israelis. And how angry they were about it all. I could see that this was really bothering them. Hell, if I spent my time emoting over wrongs my entire ancestry both committed and suffered through, I wouldn't have much left of a life left. Why the difference? That's above my pay grade -- hence the reason I find it so fascinating. I can unequivocally say, however, that hating someone or some culture is a fool's game that hurts the hater much more than the object of hatred. There is a terrible strain of nihilism alive in the world. So many lives wasted by it. Very sad.
- ido 15y ago
  Why the difference? I suspect that in the particular example you gave it's not really about the great-great grandfather's eviction, but rather that's just a personal thing to relate their general grudge and opposition of Israel to. I suspect that if you were a native American living in shitty conditions in some reservation you would also have harbored much more grudge against these (now ancient) injustices than if you're a white American whose ancestor got killed by Apaches 200 years ago- it's easier to forgive & forget when you are the winner: after all your hypothetical self is now in no way affected by that 200 year-old injustice.
  - DanielBMarkham 15y ago
    Want to make sure I'm clear on this: I'm not saying that different people don't have a legitimate reason to be upset. If you're living in a former communist state in shitty conditions because the Soviets destroyed your country, sure. If you're living in poverty in some third-world country because your elected leaders like playing the "big man" in politics and killed all your family? Sure. There are lots of great reasons to be angry about your current conditions _and_ those things that have gone on before. It just doesn't accomplish much. It creates a culture of anger, vengeance, victimhood, and nihilism. I think the danger here is to confuse the issue and start talking about who really has a right to be upset or what kind of justice is demanded by current conditions. That's a completely different conversation -- one that must happen in all of these cases, but one which happens in a lot more productive manner when people forgive. Take a look at what happened in South Africa, for instance. Not a perfect resolution, but they are not spending the next 100 years in blood feuds either.
known 15y ago
As per New Economics Foundation, Bhutan(17), Sri Lanka(22), Pakistan(24) nations are happier than India(35). http://www.rediff.com/business/slide-show/slide-show-1-worlds-10-happiest-countries/20110610.htm http://www.rediff.com/business/slide-show/slide-show-1-world...
known 15y ago
Pakistan(83) is a better nation to do business than India(134) http://www.doingbusiness.org/rankings http://www.doingbusiness.org/rankings
known 15y ago
Compared to India, a higher percentage of women in Pakistan feel they are treated with respect. As per National Crime Records Bureau, every 26 minutes a rape is committed in India and out of which 30% are against minors. http://ibnlive.in.com/news/more-women-respected-in-pakistan-than-india-report/134473-19-93.html?from=tn http://ibnlive.in.com/news/more-women-respected-in-pakistan-...
- GiraffeNecktie 15y ago
  According to the article it's 81% in Pakistan and 79% in India. A two percent difference in a survey means that the two countries are basically the same.
digamber_kamat 15y ago
I think rest of the world should stop mirroring India with Pakistan. There is hell lot of difference between these two countries. India is developing fast, its diverse, secular and no threat to global peace. Pakistan on other hand is a failed state.
Cherian_Abraham 15y ago
"Resentment is like drinking poison and then hoping it will kill your enemies." — NelsonMandela
scarmig 15y ago
I'm torn about this. India is a much more pluralistic society, and Pakistan is a failed state. But one of the points made early on in the article makes it seem as if the Partition was entirely Pakistan's idea, and the hundreds of thousands (millions?) of people who died were all innocent Hindus being slaughtered at the hands of murderous Muslims. "But violence erupted, and it quickly became clear that in the new homeland for India's Muslims, there would be no place for its non-Muslim communities. Pakistan and India came into being at the cost of a million lives and the largest migration in history." Which is far from the reality; it was a clusterfuck all around, and communal violence was the rule of the day on both sides of the partition line. It wasn't just Muslims in the 30s who called for two separate states. Many Hindus did too. It's true, the most prominent Hindu in the struggle (Gandhi) wanted a single state and tried to (in theory, at least) accommodate the large Muslim minority. For those efforts he was assassinated by a religious extremist. Of course, you hear religious extremist and you might assume it was some Muslim who thought Gandhi was too effective a voice for unity. To the contrary, it was a Hindu nationalist who thought Gandhi was a sellout to the Muslims. This strain of Hindu nationalism that endorses the use of violence has appeared again and again. As recently as 2002 a riot occurred in which a Hindu mob murdered around a thousand Muslims. All this isn't to say the Muslims on the subcontinent are all paragons of virtue and liberalism. They aren't. But the story the author tells is just a pleasant story, meant to appeal to the baser instincts of Wall Street Journal readers. Maybe more than that, it's a story meant to appeal to India's own self conception, where it's as pure as snow and it's those dastardly Pakistanis who've made everything terrible.
- null_para 15y ago
  Who says there are no extremists in Hinduism? Every religion has its fair share. And its true our neighbor is a failed state and made everything terrible. Given a choice about living in India or any of our neighbors, everyone will choose India. Because we are pluralistic society where every religion is respected, which is not true about our neighbor! And this article doesn't appeal India's self conception, this article speaks reality!
- anxrn 15y ago
  You're right about the history of Partition. This is roughly what happened. The British cabinet committee had originally proposed a 3-tier federation: with the center at the top, a provincial grouping of states in the middle, and states at the bottom. There were 3 'groups': A: Hindu-majority areas of the North, West and South B: Muslim-majority areas of the North-West, C: Bengal and Assam. Jinnah and the communists had agreed to this plan, Nehru wanted to defer the decision to the Constituent Assembly. Jinnah saw this as a 'betrayal' and withdrew his support. Eventually, when this plan seemed in jeopardy, the cabinet committee proposed Partition. Jinnah accepted, Nehru disagreed. And then 'Direct Action Day' and riots happened. No looking back after that.
anxrn 15y ago
This article is timely, in light of (yet another) terrorist attack on Mumbai by allegedly Islamic militants. I'm going to go out on a limb here and claim that this attack is only the latest in a long bloody series of consequences of Partition. The history of armed communal militancy, both Hindu and Muslim, began with the Kashmir movement in the late 80's; this itself was a side-effect of Partition. This was the first time communal tension took on a decidedly dark tone with armed militants entering the picture. Since then, things have only become worse, with the Pakistan establishment actively supporting and arming anti-India militants and Hindu nationalists in India attempting to derail any possibility of reconciliation by repeated acts of religious intolerance. The current situation vis-a-vis Mumbai is quite pathetic, with politicians falling over each other to get a quote out; and the people of Mumbai developing a horrible sense of resigned apathy, touted regularly as 'resilience'. What is the solution? I don't know. (War, of course, is guaranteed to always be the wrong answer). A reasonable answer, as always, is economics. If the economies of both countries improve, the resulting improved education and decrease in poverty might provide a solution. India seems to be on the right track here; Pakistan, not so much.

241 points by watchandwait 15y ago

vamsee 15y ago

Interesting, but not relevant.

ujjvala 15y ago
I agree.
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- vamsee 15y ago
  Can you point me where it implies interesting == relevant? This post is geo-political, pure and simple. And I don't see why it belongs on HN.
  - deleted 15y ago
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- tansey 15y ago
  > Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. What is the new phenomenon of which this article is evidence?
  - cooldeal 15y ago
    Most != All The benchmark seems to be if it's intellectually stimulating, which this one seems to be.
product50 15y ago
It doesn't get upvoted and be featured on the top page of Hacker News if people are not finding it useful. Hacker News is not a website to be defined by you on what is interesting and what is relevant. You are just one of thousands of people visiting this site and it will stay like that - if you find that non-interesting, it is irrelevant.
- vamsee 15y ago
  Oh, why the venom? I'm an Indian, and I personally found it interesting (though it tells me nothing new) but I find it irrelevant to what HN is. Like I mentioned in the reply above, geo-political news is irrelevant to HN discussion unless it has a direct bearing upon startups/programming. I miss the link here.
  - dimmuborgir 15y ago
    I don't see what the fuss is about. A lot of seemingly offtopics have been discussed on HN recently. Like, Japan earthquakes, Osama Bin Laden death, Egypt/Libya civil wars etc.
    - burgerbrain 15y ago
      Yes, that is why the fuss. Some of us do not appreciate the trend.
  - maw 15y ago
    See http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html, first section. It may not have been news to you, but some of it was news to me. And definitely interesting.
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zmanji 15y ago

Has there ever been a case where defining yourself as a negative of something resulted in a success?

iqster 15y ago
We Canadians pride ourselves as not being Americans ;-)

jkic47 15y ago

The article was unexpectedly heart wrenching to read. India takes its very name from the Indus valley that lies in Pakistan, while the most famous example of Islamic architecture is the Taj Mahal in India. It is sad watching the two countries' governments waste time, energy and lives in a conflict that is essentially at a stalemate.

sliverstorm 15y ago
Perhaps a stalemate has simply been deemed better than losing? After all, it is far better to throw away endless lives than let your neighbor have what you can't have.
kloncks 15y ago
Absolutely agree. Too many conflicts come from sides that focus on their few differences rather than their many similarities. This is coming from an Egyptian who realizes that Israelis (and Jews) aren't so different from my Arab Muslim self. Now, if only more people agreed.
- 4J7z0Fgt63dTZbs 15y ago
  They are agitated by the difference not because it's vast and deterring, but it's subtle, persistent and it slaps them in their face when they let their guards down.
- netcan 15y ago
  It's interesting that you bring us (Israelis) up in this context. About ten years ago I was talking to a Pakistani who proudly said to me that Israel and Pakistan are the two "homeland states." I had never thought about that. Anyway, if you want agreement, I can offer one vote.
drats 15y ago
It's worth noting the Taj Mahal and other Mughal architecture is not just Islamic though.[1] [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mughal_architecture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mughal_architecture
15y ago

programmerx 15y ago

I will probably get downvoted but articles like these do not belong on HN. This is just a propaganda article from the Indians, to make Pakistanis look bad. Now there will be propaganda articles from the Pakistanis next, to make Indians look bad. To pass propaganda is very normal for these two third world countries, they have faught 3 wars since independence in the last 60 years and still half the population in both countries live in poverty.

qasar 15y ago

Being a Pakistani (and Punjabi) American myself, I do not agree with some of the views the author puts forward. First, Pakistanis do define themselves primarily as 'non-Indians'. However, the view that Pakistan has somehow carved out a new identity is the past 60 years is false. 5,000 years of shared heredity, language, customs and political history don't shake off that easily. Even Pakistanis and their relationship to religion is very similar to Indian Hindus and their relationship to Hinduism. Just as there are extremist groups in Pakistan, there are extremist Hindus in India. Pakistani's are more Indian that they want to believe and vice versa - especially if you live in the West where the two groups meld together indistinguishably. The second point I disagree with is that minorities left only Pakistan (because of communal violence). History shows that there was a reciprocal exodus of Indian Muslims to Pakistan. Communal violence is one of the defining aspects of the sub continent. Lastly, many of the poets, philosophers and British bureaucrats did predict one thing correctly - being a minority in a Hindu majority India ultimately would have a ruinous effects on Indian Muslims - formerly some of the most educated and economically prosperous citizens of India. South Asian culture is one of rabid communalism and today Indian Muslims are less educated, less wealth and less politically represented than in any part of India's long history. Sometimes I wonder what impact it would have had on both sides of the border if the new nation had been called "West India".

aniket_ray 15y ago
Could you cite something about your assertion that Indian Muslims have had a raw deal? I have only one data point Azim Premji, who is one of the richest Indians and is a Muslim. I've heard that in some rural areas, banks do give loans on religious lines i.e. Banks in some muslim predominant areas only give loans to muslims and in some Hindu predominant areas to only hindus. Though I heard that the government is trying to curb this. Personally, a lot of it seems to be anti-Indian propaganda. In India, our media tells us that such anti-India propaganda is quite common in Pakistani media. (Yes, I understand the dichotomy that I am dependent on Indian media for a lot of my raw data)
- qasar 15y ago
  Its only anecdotal, my brother in law is an Indian Muslim from UP. He says the 1-2 blow of being a communal society and being the largest minority doesn't create the best situation. Minorities getting the short end of the stick in terms of education and opportunities isn't exclusive to India (see the US - arguably the best nation on the planet for minorities that still stuggles with this), its just a more central topic because of the sub continent's partition history.

rajpaul 15y ago

this conflict is a waste of human capital. i hope the fog of ignorance is lifted very soon and the desire for profit brings people together.

Zarar 15y ago

The author had daddy issues. BTW, what is this article even doing on HN? My take: Kashmir == root cause. Fix that first, grant independence.

wisty 15y ago
People don't question 2 or 3 China articles a day. It's refreshing to see something written about another big developing country or (in this case, two).
- ammarkalim 15y ago
  hahah....daddy issues...FTW!!!

g123g 15y ago

Very good and balanced article overall. The hatred of each other has become so deep rooted in both the countries and the mutual suspicion so strong that it is too late that the relationship can be changed. But we still owe it our next generation to work towards peace so that the wealth that belongs to them does not get spent in keeping up the needless hostility. We cannot let the past ruin the lives of the poorest people in the world who live in this region. It is time for the Pakistani people to call a spade a spade. They cannot take refuge anymore in the filmsy excuses and their needless obsession with Kashmir anymore. If they don't do anything now and continue to behave as they have done till now for the last 60 years, it will be too late. Pakistan as a nation is literally on its last breath and it needs an immediate shock treatment by its own people if it wants to survive. India will continue to grow and survive but it is Pakistan whose survival at stake. If Pakistani people continue to behave like ostriches with their heads in sand, then they will have only themselves to blame and not any of their make believe enemies like US or India.

nodata 15y ago
> it is too late that the relationship can be changed What would be one of the "things" that would have to happen for this to change, even momentarily?
akshaykarthik 15y ago
I am Indian, and have lived in India for most of my life. I have been to nearly every state (all except Kashmir, and Oyra) and everywhere I go, it always seems like the Pakistanis' hatred is the most prevalent one. One thing I can assure you is that, despite the appearance of all of this hatred, all the Indian teens I have met have no hatred for our neighbor but rather wish the fighting would stop. Since I moved to the United States, I have had several Pakistani friends who voice the same opinions. There is no tension between the youth of the two countries (except during the Cricket World Cup). The problem is that a government full of conservative, short-sighted politicians in India, and a government, influenced by religion, blinded by hatred in Pakistan can not seem to work out their differences. Even if the consensus among Indians and Pakistanis' is to stop the fighting, not much can be done until the current regime is changed ( mostly in Pakistan ). The US's problem is that publicly, they must support Pakistan despite having no real part in the conflict between the two nations ( further increasing tensions on both sides).

known 15y ago

During Indo-Pak partition in 1947 the agreement is that all Muslim majority regions should be merged with Pakistan and all Hindu majority regions should be merged with India. India betrayed by annexing Muslim majority Kashmir and Hyderabad. UNSC passed multiple resolutions since 1948 advising India, Pakistan & China to give Independence to Kashmir, Tibet & Aksai Chin. Obsession with Kashmir is burning rest of the India.

digamber_kamat 15y ago
It is not buring rest of India. Also Kashmeer is a pretty much part of India and Indians love it. WE recently conducted a series of engineering workshops in Kashmeer. We were very surprised with the kind of enthusiasm the young crowd showed towards us. They were upset that because of few antisocial elements supported mostly by Pakistan they are unable to aspire their dreams like rest of the Indians. As far as legalities are concerned: http://satyameva-jayate.org/category/jammu-kashmir-related/ http://satyameva-jayate.org/category/jammu-kashmir-related/ The problem cant not be solved on this forum but the hope is Pakistan is probably breathing it's last, it will get consumed in it's own fire of hatred sooner or later.
- known 15y ago
  Pakistan(24) is a happier nation than India(35) http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2773105 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2773105
vankap 15y ago
Hyderabad state had Muslim rulers but not a Muslim majority.
dimmuborgir 15y ago
You're a known troll who puts baseless comments on every India related posts. India didn't betray Kashmir. The king of Kashmir (Hari Singh) was a Hindu and wanted Kashmir to be an independent country. But Pakistan wanted Kashmir, so it funded insurgents against Kashmir. When the Kashmir king couldn't face them, he sought India's military help. India agreed on the condition that Kashmir should be annexed to India. The UN resolution says that India should conduct a free and fair election in the entire Kashmir to know what Kashmiris want (self determination). But for that, Pakistan should surrender its Pakistan-Administered-Kashmir to India and China should surrender Aksai Chin (if it has any population). Obsession with Kashmir is burning Pakistan more than India.

paulnelligan 15y ago

I found this article extremely interesting. If you haven't watched the 'beating retreat ceremony' video, make sure you do, it's one of the most bizarre things I've ever seen.

copper 15y ago
It's actually rather fun to watch in person, though I can understand why you think it's bizarre. It's, as far as I can see, really ceremonial - though it remains a big deal for the security forces personnel involved.

known 15y ago

According to https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Sachar_Committee_Report https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Sachar_Commit... report the status of Indian Muslims are below the conditions of https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Untouchables https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Untouchables

sharjeel 15y ago

Most of the people calling it off-topic are being downvoted. So let me refer to the HN Guidelines: What to Submit On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity. Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic.

DanielBMarkham 15y ago

One of the things that consistently puzzle me is how different cultures handle change. Over the past 150 years, the world has seen all kinds of terrible wars, killing hundreds of millions of people and causing all sorts of hatred and ill will. Some of these cultures get up, dust themselves off, and go on -- sometimes achieving greatness. Other cultures, sometimes with far less injustice done (if you can measure these things, which I doubt) carry grudges seemingly forever. Even in personal relations, I've known people in the states who suffered terribly by some criminal, only to have them forgive the criminal and move on with their lives. On the other hand, there are those who suffered the same thing who carry hatred in their heart until they die. I remember seeing a person on TV from Jerusalem. They were talking about how their great-great grandfather lived in a house but was evicted by the Israelis. And how angry they were about it all. I could see that this was really bothering them. Hell, if I spent my time emoting over wrongs my entire ancestry both committed and suffered through, I wouldn't have much left of a life left. Why the difference? That's above my pay grade -- hence the reason I find it so fascinating. I can unequivocally say, however, that hating someone or some culture is a fool's game that hurts the hater much more than the object of hatred. There is a terrible strain of nihilism alive in the world. So many lives wasted by it. Very sad.

ido 15y ago
Why the difference? I suspect that in the particular example you gave it's not really about the great-great grandfather's eviction, but rather that's just a personal thing to relate their general grudge and opposition of Israel to. I suspect that if you were a native American living in shitty conditions in some reservation you would also have harbored much more grudge against these (now ancient) injustices than if you're a white American whose ancestor got killed by Apaches 200 years ago- it's easier to forgive & forget when you are the winner: after all your hypothetical self is now in no way affected by that 200 year-old injustice.
- DanielBMarkham 15y ago
  Want to make sure I'm clear on this: I'm not saying that different people don't have a legitimate reason to be upset. If you're living in a former communist state in shitty conditions because the Soviets destroyed your country, sure. If you're living in poverty in some third-world country because your elected leaders like playing the "big man" in politics and killed all your family? Sure. There are lots of great reasons to be angry about your current conditions _and_ those things that have gone on before. It just doesn't accomplish much. It creates a culture of anger, vengeance, victimhood, and nihilism. I think the danger here is to confuse the issue and start talking about who really has a right to be upset or what kind of justice is demanded by current conditions. That's a completely different conversation -- one that must happen in all of these cases, but one which happens in a lot more productive manner when people forgive. Take a look at what happened in South Africa, for instance. Not a perfect resolution, but they are not spending the next 100 years in blood feuds either.

known 15y ago

As per New Economics Foundation, Bhutan(17), Sri Lanka(22), Pakistan(24) nations are happier than India(35). http://www.rediff.com/business/slide-show/slide-show-1-worlds-10-happiest-countries/20110610.htm http://www.rediff.com/business/slide-show/slide-show-1-world...

known 15y ago

Pakistan(83) is a better nation to do business than India(134) http://www.doingbusiness.org/rankings http://www.doingbusiness.org/rankings

known 15y ago

Compared to India, a higher percentage of women in Pakistan feel they are treated with respect. As per National Crime Records Bureau, every 26 minutes a rape is committed in India and out of which 30% are against minors. http://ibnlive.in.com/news/more-women-respected-in-pakistan-than-india-report/134473-19-93.html?from=tn http://ibnlive.in.com/news/more-women-respected-in-pakistan-...

GiraffeNecktie 15y ago
According to the article it's 81% in Pakistan and 79% in India. A two percent difference in a survey means that the two countries are basically the same.

digamber_kamat 15y ago

I think rest of the world should stop mirroring India with Pakistan. There is hell lot of difference between these two countries. India is developing fast, its diverse, secular and no threat to global peace. Pakistan on other hand is a failed state.

Cherian_Abraham 15y ago

"Resentment is like drinking poison and then hoping it will kill your enemies." — NelsonMandela

scarmig 15y ago

I'm torn about this. India is a much more pluralistic society, and Pakistan is a failed state. But one of the points made early on in the article makes it seem as if the Partition was entirely Pakistan's idea, and the hundreds of thousands (millions?) of people who died were all innocent Hindus being slaughtered at the hands of murderous Muslims. "But violence erupted, and it quickly became clear that in the new homeland for India's Muslims, there would be no place for its non-Muslim communities. Pakistan and India came into being at the cost of a million lives and the largest migration in history." Which is far from the reality; it was a clusterfuck all around, and communal violence was the rule of the day on both sides of the partition line. It wasn't just Muslims in the 30s who called for two separate states. Many Hindus did too. It's true, the most prominent Hindu in the struggle (Gandhi) wanted a single state and tried to (in theory, at least) accommodate the large Muslim minority. For those efforts he was assassinated by a religious extremist. Of course, you hear religious extremist and you might assume it was some Muslim who thought Gandhi was too effective a voice for unity. To the contrary, it was a Hindu nationalist who thought Gandhi was a sellout to the Muslims. This strain of Hindu nationalism that endorses the use of violence has appeared again and again. As recently as 2002 a riot occurred in which a Hindu mob murdered around a thousand Muslims. All this isn't to say the Muslims on the subcontinent are all paragons of virtue and liberalism. They aren't. But the story the author tells is just a pleasant story, meant to appeal to the baser instincts of Wall Street Journal readers. Maybe more than that, it's a story meant to appeal to India's own self conception, where it's as pure as snow and it's those dastardly Pakistanis who've made everything terrible.

null_para 15y ago
Who says there are no extremists in Hinduism? Every religion has its fair share. And its true our neighbor is a failed state and made everything terrible. Given a choice about living in India or any of our neighbors, everyone will choose India. Because we are pluralistic society where every religion is respected, which is not true about our neighbor! And this article doesn't appeal India's self conception, this article speaks reality!
anxrn 15y ago
You're right about the history of Partition. This is roughly what happened. The British cabinet committee had originally proposed a 3-tier federation: with the center at the top, a provincial grouping of states in the middle, and states at the bottom. There were 3 'groups': A: Hindu-majority areas of the North, West and South B: Muslim-majority areas of the North-West, C: Bengal and Assam. Jinnah and the communists had agreed to this plan, Nehru wanted to defer the decision to the Constituent Assembly. Jinnah saw this as a 'betrayal' and withdrew his support. Eventually, when this plan seemed in jeopardy, the cabinet committee proposed Partition. Jinnah accepted, Nehru disagreed. And then 'Direct Action Day' and riots happened. No looking back after that.

anxrn 15y ago

This article is timely, in light of (yet another) terrorist attack on Mumbai by allegedly Islamic militants. I'm going to go out on a limb here and claim that this attack is only the latest in a long bloody series of consequences of Partition. The history of armed communal militancy, both Hindu and Muslim, began with the Kashmir movement in the late 80's; this itself was a side-effect of Partition. This was the first time communal tension took on a decidedly dark tone with armed militants entering the picture. Since then, things have only become worse, with the Pakistan establishment actively supporting and arming anti-India militants and Hindu nationalists in India attempting to derail any possibility of reconciliation by repeated acts of religious intolerance. The current situation vis-a-vis Mumbai is quite pathetic, with politicians falling over each other to get a quote out; and the people of Mumbai developing a horrible sense of resigned apathy, touted regularly as 'resilience'. What is the solution? I don't know. (War, of course, is guaranteed to always be the wrong answer). A reasonable answer, as always, is economics. If the economies of both countries improve, the resulting improved education and decrease in poverty might provide a solution. India seems to be on the right track here; Pakistan, not so much.