6 ms·

This seems to be a clear case of fraud by whoever had her declared dead. As well as earlier incompetence by whoever handled the transfer of Mme H's employment r

by pcrh 5y ago

This seems to be a clear case of fraud by whoever had her declared dead. As well as earlier incompetence by whoever handled the transfer of Mme H's employment records. Further, Article 6 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states: "Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law." She needs a better lawyer....

sascha_sl 5y ago
If your existence is an edge case no lawyer can help you. As the article said, even the justice minister of France is aware of the issue, yet not willing to act on it. A much less severe version of this is changing your first name (or, indeed, gender marker). Systems are only now gaining the ability to even change some of these records, but often it is up to the people with limited access to these systems to "work around" them. Whenever possible I didn't even ask to change my name, just close one account and make another. Including with a bank that actually suggested I do this.
- pcrh 5y ago
  Why would she not be able to sue for recognition as a living person?
  - sascha_sl 5y ago
    She had trouble even getting a lawyer to take her as a client. People that don't exist can probably not file lawsuits either.
    - pcrh 5y ago
      >People that don't exist can probably not file lawsuits either. Haha, very Kafka! Seriously, though, I find it hard to imagine that this is an impossible case.
  - shakna 5y ago
    Part of filing for a suit is proving that you have the right to represent the individual. Usually this is easy, as most people are recognisable (leaglly) as representing themselves. As the individual is officially deceased, you need some documentation from before they were recognised as such, granting their rights to a recognisable individual. That is, the lawyer needs to be granted the right to represent her, but she probably doesn't currently have the necessary legal paperwork to give them that. She can't represent her own estate - she's legally dead.
- pacman2 5y ago
  This article sounds like bullshit and I am sure I could handle this without a lawyer in "administrative court". I filed 4 law suits in administrative courts in my country and won them all. I used a lawyer only once in another EU country for my girl friend since I did not speak the local language. In hind sight I may have done it myself since my language should have been recognized as a minority language in court in this country. But the lawyer was only 300 Euro. This is still the west and courts still work. Don't be intimidated.
  - retrac 5y ago
    > I filed First potential hitch. How do you file legal paperwork in the name of someone who is dead? Do you have ID to prove who you are? While you can probably file a court case without photo ID, you can't file anonymously in most jurisdictions. And you can't use a fraudulent identity like the name of some dead person...
    - pacman2 5y ago
      Easy solution: File with the IRS, ask since you are dead, you don't owe any future taxes, right? Trust me. Things will start moving very quickly. Exceed the speed limit. Reject the fine claiming you are dead. Trust me. The possibilities are endless and take my word, I would enjoy them.
      - retrac 5y ago
        You may really be underestimating the blind nature of these systems. There is no single human with the clear authority and ability to alter the rule-making architecture giving these results. They all feel powerless and try to pass it up the chain (all the way to the minister responsible in the national government apparently, who also seems helpless!). As to enjoying being legally dead? I guess you don't have diabetes meds to worry about like the woman in France :)
        pacman2 5y ago
        You would be surprised what a judge can do in countries with rule of law.
- js2 5y ago
  > If your existence is an edge case no lawyer can help you This happens occasionally in the U.S. Two recent cases: - Alecia Faith Pennington: https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolab/articles/invisible-girl https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolab/articles/invis... - Jamie Lanosga: https://gazette.com/news/born-in-the-usa-without-a-shred-of-proof/article_a9a684fd-d024-531d-9b17-2282578cda4a.html https://gazette.com/news/born-in-the-usa-without-a-shred-of-... It is a major hassle to establish your legal identity as an adult. It seems to take a politician intervening.
  - hermitdev 5y ago
    I wonder, would it be any different if the government had biometrics for your identity on hand from a period where you were deemed alive? For instance, I've fingerprints on file with the SEC due to prior work in finance. I'm pretty sure government jobs requiring a security clearance would have similar. Or having an arrest record?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

by pcrh 5y ago

sascha_sl 5y ago

If your existence is an edge case no lawyer can help you. As the article said, even the justice minister of France is aware of the issue, yet not willing to act on it. A much less severe version of this is changing your first name (or, indeed, gender marker). Systems are only now gaining the ability to even change some of these records, but often it is up to the people with limited access to these systems to "work around" them. Whenever possible I didn't even ask to change my name, just close one account and make another. Including with a bank that actually suggested I do this.

pcrh 5y ago
Why would she not be able to sue for recognition as a living person?
- sascha_sl 5y ago
  She had trouble even getting a lawyer to take her as a client. People that don't exist can probably not file lawsuits either.
  - pcrh 5y ago
    >People that don't exist can probably not file lawsuits either. Haha, very Kafka! Seriously, though, I find it hard to imagine that this is an impossible case.
- shakna 5y ago
  Part of filing for a suit is proving that you have the right to represent the individual. Usually this is easy, as most people are recognisable (leaglly) as representing themselves. As the individual is officially deceased, you need some documentation from before they were recognised as such, granting their rights to a recognisable individual. That is, the lawyer needs to be granted the right to represent her, but she probably doesn't currently have the necessary legal paperwork to give them that. She can't represent her own estate - she's legally dead.
pacman2 5y ago
This article sounds like bullshit and I am sure I could handle this without a lawyer in "administrative court". I filed 4 law suits in administrative courts in my country and won them all. I used a lawyer only once in another EU country for my girl friend since I did not speak the local language. In hind sight I may have done it myself since my language should have been recognized as a minority language in court in this country. But the lawyer was only 300 Euro. This is still the west and courts still work. Don't be intimidated.
- retrac 5y ago
  > I filed First potential hitch. How do you file legal paperwork in the name of someone who is dead? Do you have ID to prove who you are? While you can probably file a court case without photo ID, you can't file anonymously in most jurisdictions. And you can't use a fraudulent identity like the name of some dead person...
  - pacman2 5y ago
    Easy solution: File with the IRS, ask since you are dead, you don't owe any future taxes, right? Trust me. Things will start moving very quickly. Exceed the speed limit. Reject the fine claiming you are dead. Trust me. The possibilities are endless and take my word, I would enjoy them.
    - retrac 5y ago
      You may really be underestimating the blind nature of these systems. There is no single human with the clear authority and ability to alter the rule-making architecture giving these results. They all feel powerless and try to pass it up the chain (all the way to the minister responsible in the national government apparently, who also seems helpless!). As to enjoying being legally dead? I guess you don't have diabetes meds to worry about like the woman in France :)
      - pacman2 5y ago
        You would be surprised what a judge can do in countries with rule of law.
js2 5y ago
> If your existence is an edge case no lawyer can help you This happens occasionally in the U.S. Two recent cases: - Alecia Faith Pennington: https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolab/articles/invisible-girl https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolab/articles/invis... - Jamie Lanosga: https://gazette.com/news/born-in-the-usa-without-a-shred-of-proof/article_a9a684fd-d024-531d-9b17-2282578cda4a.html https://gazette.com/news/born-in-the-usa-without-a-shred-of-... It is a major hassle to establish your legal identity as an adult. It seems to take a politician intervening.
- hermitdev 5y ago
  I wonder, would it be any different if the government had biometrics for your identity on hand from a period where you were deemed alive? For instance, I've fingerprints on file with the SEC due to prior work in finance. I'm pretty sure government jobs requiring a security clearance would have similar. Or having an arrest record?
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]