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I don't understand why the author leaves many words and phrases untranslated. They have translated everything else, but why leave "carte d’identité" or "grande

I don't understand why the author leaves many words and phrases untranslated. They have translated everything else, but why leave "carte d’identité" or "grande école"? Why say "mairie (town hall)" instead of just saying town hall? These are not loan words that exist in English, and the untranslated words themselves did not seem essential to the story. I've seen a similar issue with Anime fansubs where the translator deems certain words to be untranslatable, and then adds an entire extra sentence of definition on screen upon the first usage.

kwhitefoot 5y ago
The entire story is set in France. Perhaps they don't add anything for you but for me they give the story a more French flavour. And anyway town hall is not an precise translation for mairie. In my home town in the south of England a more correct equivalent would be civic offices. Also in the UK reporting a death is done online these days, definitely not at the town hall. Actually I don't know for sure how these things are done in France but that they are done differently seems certain.
- Igelau 5y ago
  US reader checking in. If they'd translated it as "town hall" I'd assume they were talking about a dreadful televised political rally.
ericd 5y ago
Maybe because "grande école" literally means "big school", but it's essentially a proper noun in French, similar to their version of "Ivy League"? Not sure why for the others you mention, except that they're very specific concepts in France as well, which don't really have very good analogues in the US. Or maybe they just like the sound of the French word and want to sound more sophisticated.
Aerroon 5y ago
Perhaps these are specific names? I could call the US 'Congress' as 'Parliament', but 'Congress' is probably the better choice. >I've seen a similar issue with Anime fansubs where the translator deems certain words to be untranslatable, Yes, as it should be. This is why official translations suck and fansubs are superior works.
- Zababa 5y ago
  > Perhaps these are specific names? They are. "grande école" can be translated to "big school", but in French it means a prestigious school. "carte d'identité" is also a specific document, since you can also prove your identity with your passport or your driver's license. For the "mairie" part, I don't know about the specifics of town halls in the USA so I can't compare. It's probably that they work differently so using the same word would imply the same thing. > This is why official translations suck and fansubs are superior works. Don't get me started on half-assed attempts at localization, especially when made by people that can't even understand the original language.
  - astrange 5y ago
    > Don't get me started on half-assed attempts at localization, especially when made by people that can't even understand the original language. The more common problem is the opposite. People who think they speak Japanese because they know what "-chan" means demand "unlocalized" works, by which they mean works translated into "English but we left in a few Japanese words the readers know". This provides essentially no benefit because the act of translating into English already removed way more meaning than a few honorifics can keep. Sometimes it even means translating Japanese words into other ones, since the readers don't even know every honorific, they just think they do. Amateur translations also like to leave in English words in the original text, not knowing they have totally different meanings in Japan.
    - Zababa 5y ago
      > The more common problem is the opposite. People who think they speak Japanese because they know what "-chan" means demand "unlocalized" works, by which they mean works translated into "English but we left in a few Japanese words the readers know". Isn't "unlocalized" the base state? Just translate it, and don't replace the references with others? At least that's how I understand it. > This provides essentially no benefit because the act of translating into English already removed way more meaning than a few honorifics can keep. Sometimes it even means translating Japanese words into other ones, since the readers don't even know every honorific, they just think they do. Are we talking about the same things? What I refer to as localizations is when people substitute references for other references more familiar to the target audiance. It's not about losing something or not losing it, since by translating you always lose something, but creating an entirely new experience. The split is then on people that prefer a worse but more genuine experience (by that I mean closer to the original) vs the people that want a better but less genuine experience. > Amateur translations also like to leave in English words in the original text, not knowing they have totally different meanings in Japan. Localized vs unlocalized is a different debate from amateur vs professional translation I think.
smnrchrds 5y ago
> I don't understand why the author leaves many words and phrases untranslated Because they are effectively proper nouns. You cannot translate them, you can at most explain them. For example, grande école has its own page on English Wikipedia and which is called grande école, not translated to big school or something else. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grande_%C3%A9cole https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grande_%C3%A9cole
mcfedr 5y ago
Well on English a town hall is just a big space used for events and things, whereas a marie is is clearly more like the local government offices
- smnrchrds 5y ago
  Vital statistics (birth certificates, deaths, etc.), driver's licenses, vehicle registration, business registration, healthcare cards, etc. in my province are not even handled directly by a government office, but by private companies contracted by the government. They are called registry agents. I imagine if an article about Alberta just dropped the translated word agent d'enregistrement, no one in France (or even the rest of Canada) would have any clue what it talks about. http://www.servicealberta.gov.ab.ca/find-a-registry-agent.cfm http://www.servicealberta.gov.ab.ca/find-a-registry-agent.cf...
mmarq 5y ago
I agree on “carte d’identité”, which is easily translatable as “ID card”. But outside of France there’s no concept of “grande école”, so you can't translate it. It’s arguable if “mairie” can be translated as “town hall”, because as far as I understand a French “mairie” and a British town hall don’t serve the same purpose.
Igelau 5y ago
But not everything does translate. Here's a simple enough example: Some people will tell you that "aloha" means "hello" and "goodbye". That's not really true. It used as a salutation and a farewell, but "aloha" means Aloha: a whole concept that is specific to Hawaiian culture that often translates more accurately as "beloved".

kwhitefoot 5y ago

The entire story is set in France. Perhaps they don't add anything for you but for me they give the story a more French flavour. And anyway town hall is not an precise translation for mairie. In my home town in the south of England a more correct equivalent would be civic offices. Also in the UK reporting a death is done online these days, definitely not at the town hall. Actually I don't know for sure how these things are done in France but that they are done differently seems certain.

Igelau 5y ago
US reader checking in. If they'd translated it as "town hall" I'd assume they were talking about a dreadful televised political rally.

ericd 5y ago

Maybe because "grande école" literally means "big school", but it's essentially a proper noun in French, similar to their version of "Ivy League"? Not sure why for the others you mention, except that they're very specific concepts in France as well, which don't really have very good analogues in the US. Or maybe they just like the sound of the French word and want to sound more sophisticated.

Aerroon 5y ago

Perhaps these are specific names? I could call the US 'Congress' as 'Parliament', but 'Congress' is probably the better choice. >I've seen a similar issue with Anime fansubs where the translator deems certain words to be untranslatable, Yes, as it should be. This is why official translations suck and fansubs are superior works.

Zababa 5y ago
> Perhaps these are specific names? They are. "grande école" can be translated to "big school", but in French it means a prestigious school. "carte d'identité" is also a specific document, since you can also prove your identity with your passport or your driver's license. For the "mairie" part, I don't know about the specifics of town halls in the USA so I can't compare. It's probably that they work differently so using the same word would imply the same thing. > This is why official translations suck and fansubs are superior works. Don't get me started on half-assed attempts at localization, especially when made by people that can't even understand the original language.
- astrange 5y ago
  > Don't get me started on half-assed attempts at localization, especially when made by people that can't even understand the original language. The more common problem is the opposite. People who think they speak Japanese because they know what "-chan" means demand "unlocalized" works, by which they mean works translated into "English but we left in a few Japanese words the readers know". This provides essentially no benefit because the act of translating into English already removed way more meaning than a few honorifics can keep. Sometimes it even means translating Japanese words into other ones, since the readers don't even know every honorific, they just think they do. Amateur translations also like to leave in English words in the original text, not knowing they have totally different meanings in Japan.
  - Zababa 5y ago
    > The more common problem is the opposite. People who think they speak Japanese because they know what "-chan" means demand "unlocalized" works, by which they mean works translated into "English but we left in a few Japanese words the readers know". Isn't "unlocalized" the base state? Just translate it, and don't replace the references with others? At least that's how I understand it. > This provides essentially no benefit because the act of translating into English already removed way more meaning than a few honorifics can keep. Sometimes it even means translating Japanese words into other ones, since the readers don't even know every honorific, they just think they do. Are we talking about the same things? What I refer to as localizations is when people substitute references for other references more familiar to the target audiance. It's not about losing something or not losing it, since by translating you always lose something, but creating an entirely new experience. The split is then on people that prefer a worse but more genuine experience (by that I mean closer to the original) vs the people that want a better but less genuine experience. > Amateur translations also like to leave in English words in the original text, not knowing they have totally different meanings in Japan. Localized vs unlocalized is a different debate from amateur vs professional translation I think.

smnrchrds 5y ago

> I don't understand why the author leaves many words and phrases untranslated Because they are effectively proper nouns. You cannot translate them, you can at most explain them. For example, grande école has its own page on English Wikipedia and which is called grande école, not translated to big school or something else. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grande_%C3%A9cole https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grande_%C3%A9cole

mcfedr 5y ago

Well on English a town hall is just a big space used for events and things, whereas a marie is is clearly more like the local government offices

smnrchrds 5y ago
Vital statistics (birth certificates, deaths, etc.), driver's licenses, vehicle registration, business registration, healthcare cards, etc. in my province are not even handled directly by a government office, but by private companies contracted by the government. They are called registry agents. I imagine if an article about Alberta just dropped the translated word agent d'enregistrement, no one in France (or even the rest of Canada) would have any clue what it talks about. http://www.servicealberta.gov.ab.ca/find-a-registry-agent.cfm http://www.servicealberta.gov.ab.ca/find-a-registry-agent.cf...

mmarq 5y ago

I agree on “carte d’identité”, which is easily translatable as “ID card”. But outside of France there’s no concept of “grande école”, so you can't translate it. It’s arguable if “mairie” can be translated as “town hall”, because as far as I understand a French “mairie” and a British town hall don’t serve the same purpose.

Igelau 5y ago

But not everything does translate. Here's a simple enough example: Some people will tell you that "aloha" means "hello" and "goodbye". That's not really true. It used as a salutation and a farewell, but "aloha" means Aloha: a whole concept that is specific to Hawaiian culture that often translates more accurately as "beloved".