5 ms·

Your FP example reminds me of the JS trend that picked up about 5 years ago. Not sure if they're still doing it, but you described the dogma near perfectly.

bayesian_horse 5y ago
Because imperative programming in Javascript, even with OOP principles and patterns, generally leads to even more complexity and messiness. FP is now almost the norm in frontend engineering. Certainly in the React world. Immutability and side-effect-awareness is highly valued.
- pjmlp 5y ago
  Thé irony being that JavaScript doesn't add anything that Smalltalk didn't already provide, yet we have all this OOP backslash and how FP is somehow better.
  - bayesian_horse 5y ago
    Well, Javascript is the language that is able to run everywhere, so that's what frontend engineers have to target. There is some more flexibility now with Webassembly... If you are interested, look up Fable, Bolero, Elm, PureScript, ClojureScript, Grain...
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - pjmlp 5y ago
      All of them don't wash away JavaScript semantics, just because the source language is something else.
      - bayesian_horse 5y ago
        That's actually not true, at least if your definition of "Javascript semantics" isn't extremely broad. This was the case with CoffeeScript. But the examples I gave either work with Webassembly (Grain, Bolero), providing their own runtime, or do some work to hide Javascript's data model to a large degree (F#, Purescript, ClojureScript). What stays the same is that you are dealing with the DOM, User events occurring there and a metric sh*t ton of asynchronous APIs.
dhruvarora013 5y ago
Do you mean Redux? If yes, it's still quite popular
kortex 5y ago
Yes, that's exactly what I was getting at. It was less a criticism of FP (which is why I say it feels like it might be - it's not) and more a criticism of the bevy of techniques common in modern full-stack development. Even then I'm not saying it's bad to do thing that way. They absolutely have their place. OOP has its place. FP has its place. Distributed computing has its place and vertical scaling has its place. The point is, dogmatically latching onto "X bad! Y good!" blinds you to potential solutions.

bayesian_horse 5y ago

Because imperative programming in Javascript, even with OOP principles and patterns, generally leads to even more complexity and messiness. FP is now almost the norm in frontend engineering. Certainly in the React world. Immutability and side-effect-awareness is highly valued.

pjmlp 5y ago
Thé irony being that JavaScript doesn't add anything that Smalltalk didn't already provide, yet we have all this OOP backslash and how FP is somehow better.
- bayesian_horse 5y ago
  Well, Javascript is the language that is able to run everywhere, so that's what frontend engineers have to target. There is some more flexibility now with Webassembly... If you are interested, look up Fable, Bolero, Elm, PureScript, ClojureScript, Grain...
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    All of them don't wash away JavaScript semantics, just because the source language is something else.
    - bayesian_horse 5y ago
      That's actually not true, at least if your definition of "Javascript semantics" isn't extremely broad. This was the case with CoffeeScript. But the examples I gave either work with Webassembly (Grain, Bolero), providing their own runtime, or do some work to hide Javascript's data model to a large degree (F#, Purescript, ClojureScript). What stays the same is that you are dealing with the DOM, User events occurring there and a metric sh*t ton of asynchronous APIs.

dhruvarora013 5y ago

Do you mean Redux? If yes, it's still quite popular

kortex 5y ago

Yes, that's exactly what I was getting at. It was less a criticism of FP (which is why I say it feels like it might be - it's not) and more a criticism of the bevy of techniques common in modern full-stack development. Even then I'm not saying it's bad to do thing that way. They absolutely have their place. OOP has its place. FP has its place. Distributed computing has its place and vertical scaling has its place. The point is, dogmatically latching onto "X bad! Y good!" blinds you to potential solutions.