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Very interesting but also so disgusting for the spirit of sport. Here you have the confirmation that it is not the best human performance that wins in the end,

Very interesting but also so disgusting for the spirit of sport. Here you have the confirmation that it is not the best human performance that wins in the end, but the one that has more money to spend in R&D and product development for the bicycles or tools.

dawnerd 5y ago
That’s been the case for a very long time with all sports unfortunately.
- gameswithgo 5y ago
  why unfortunate?
  - dawnerd 5y ago
    Because it's no longer about human ability and more who has the biggest R&D budget. Wired has a good couple episodes about it. Ex: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn0lqMuGguw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn0lqMuGguw
tjoff 5y ago
It certainly helps but gaming your psyche has greater reward. 10% of X might sound a lot until you realize that X only accounts for 2.2% of the total.
skybrian 5y ago
That’s needlessly reductive, treating the engineers as if they were machines that convert money into performance. But engineers are human too and this is a challenge for them. They do need money, but it’s not a given that the most money gets the best engineers. It does change the nature of the challenge when it’s not entirely about the individual on the bike.
cobri 5y ago
This likely happens in every sport that relies on gear, apparel, or some level of mechanical variable. Swimming -> buoyant suits; Basketball -> Lighter, stiffer shoes; Soccer -> Cleats, Uniforms; Running -> Carbon fiber plates; Sports that depend on some mechanical variable seem to trend toward improving/tuning that variable in whatever ways allowed by that sport (car/bike/boat racing).
visarga 5y ago
We get the same complaint in ML - big companies have more money for compute so they can try more idea variations, discard the bad ones and stake a claim on the good ones. Or even on the same architecture they can train more models and by pure chance get one that is %0.1 better than previous SOTA ("random seed optimization").
gameswithgo 5y ago
There are sports that are almost only about the human, sports that are almost only about the machine, and everything in between. Cycling is in between and always has been, people have looked for an edge since the beginning. It is part of the fun for some, a chore for others.
GuB-42 5y ago
Cycling is a mechanical sport, mechanical sports are a competition that test both the machine and the people who design and build it as well as the human operating it. There are competitions where everyone is given the same machine to put emphasis on the human performance. In cycling for instance, Japanese "Keirin" racers all use the same low tech steel bike that they maintain themselves. Anyways, money is always going to matter. More money gives you better training, better nutrition and medical support, better equipment and can allow athletes to focus exclusively on their sport by offloading them from the usual chores. In teams sports, also better teammates. There is no way around it, but it doesn't mean the athletes lose merit, even with performance enhancing drugs, it takes a lot of effort and dedication to come out on top.
C19is20 5y ago
I'm afraid you won't enjoy this much, then - Durianrider: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_f7QxGr688 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_f7QxGr688 discussing Natural or Not Natural (Tour de France, but he'll call out anybody).
- C19is20 5y ago
  / talking about the use of chemicals in Cycling - natural or not natural.

dawnerd 5y ago

That’s been the case for a very long time with all sports unfortunately.

gameswithgo 5y ago
why unfortunate?
- dawnerd 5y ago
  Because it's no longer about human ability and more who has the biggest R&D budget. Wired has a good couple episodes about it. Ex: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn0lqMuGguw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn0lqMuGguw

tjoff 5y ago

It certainly helps but gaming your psyche has greater reward. 10% of X might sound a lot until you realize that X only accounts for 2.2% of the total.

skybrian 5y ago

That’s needlessly reductive, treating the engineers as if they were machines that convert money into performance. But engineers are human too and this is a challenge for them. They do need money, but it’s not a given that the most money gets the best engineers. It does change the nature of the challenge when it’s not entirely about the individual on the bike.

cobri 5y ago

This likely happens in every sport that relies on gear, apparel, or some level of mechanical variable. Swimming -> buoyant suits; Basketball -> Lighter, stiffer shoes; Soccer -> Cleats, Uniforms; Running -> Carbon fiber plates; Sports that depend on some mechanical variable seem to trend toward improving/tuning that variable in whatever ways allowed by that sport (car/bike/boat racing).

visarga 5y ago

We get the same complaint in ML - big companies have more money for compute so they can try more idea variations, discard the bad ones and stake a claim on the good ones. Or even on the same architecture they can train more models and by pure chance get one that is %0.1 better than previous SOTA ("random seed optimization").

gameswithgo 5y ago

There are sports that are almost only about the human, sports that are almost only about the machine, and everything in between. Cycling is in between and always has been, people have looked for an edge since the beginning. It is part of the fun for some, a chore for others.

GuB-42 5y ago

Cycling is a mechanical sport, mechanical sports are a competition that test both the machine and the people who design and build it as well as the human operating it. There are competitions where everyone is given the same machine to put emphasis on the human performance. In cycling for instance, Japanese "Keirin" racers all use the same low tech steel bike that they maintain themselves. Anyways, money is always going to matter. More money gives you better training, better nutrition and medical support, better equipment and can allow athletes to focus exclusively on their sport by offloading them from the usual chores. In teams sports, also better teammates. There is no way around it, but it doesn't mean the athletes lose merit, even with performance enhancing drugs, it takes a lot of effort and dedication to come out on top.

C19is20 5y ago

I'm afraid you won't enjoy this much, then - Durianrider: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_f7QxGr688 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_f7QxGr688 discussing Natural or Not Natural (Tour de France, but he'll call out anybody).

C19is20 5y ago
/ talking about the use of chemicals in Cycling - natural or not natural.