7 ms·

As long as any troubleshooting on linux will require the user to open terminal it will never gain a significant marketshare. No other system is as user hostile.

endgame 5y ago
I consider Windows trying to wheedle me into getting a Microsoft account or Apple's increasing number of restrictions on controlling my own system to be way more user-hostile than anything the GNU system does.
- mschild 5y ago
  Yes, but you are not the average user. Most people I know, mostly non-technical users including people playing computer games, simply dont care. Some have MS or Apple accounts, some dont. They simply want to use their devices with as little hassle as possible. They have no idea what a terminal is and dont care to find out.
  - wayneftw 5y ago
    I don't think that this guy was trying to present himself as the average user. Obviously the people on this forum are not average users. Simply sharing a point of view does not an argument make.
- Ocerge 5y ago
  The average user could not care any less. I understand where you're coming from, but the HN archetype is an extreme minority.
- ubavic 5y ago
  An average computer user can make MS account in 5 minutes. After that, installing and playing some game is a two click process. Experienced Linux user can spend whole weekend configuring drivers, and still be unable to enjoy game. I would say that UX of a first user is much better
  - techrat 5y ago
    Uh huh. Ask me how I know you've never used a Linux distribution before. We could easily have an honest debate about operating systems if you didn't decide to be so dishonest about the actual process. Ubuntu itself has less steps during the installation process than Windows 10 does. From there, Software Center, Steam. Click install. Done. Drivers are already installed and don't need to be 'configured.'
    - ubavic 5y ago
      I use both Windows and Linux for a long time, and I tried Steam on both platforms in last two years. On Windows, game installation worked perfectly every single time. On Linux, I firstly needed to instal Xorg (because Steam couldn’t start under wayland). After that I spend whole day configuring drivers (I switched from Noveau to proprietary and then back) because I couldn’t get full performance from my card. As time went by, and I tried more and more games, I regularly needed to apply some ad hoc fixes (if you open protondb you will see that most of games sometimes need manual adjustments). I must say that some games worked perfectly under Linux, but I still can’t recommend Linux to my friends gamers who never seen console in their life (and tbh, even I gave up on Linux gaming, and I just use Windows now). Also I don’t use Ubuntu. I would probably have nicer gaming experience if I did, but for some other reason I don’t want to use it.
thepangolino 5y ago
Honestly doing stuff by copy/pasting a comand line, is perhaps one of the most user friendly actions one could do. Especially compared to the where is charly game you have to play in Windows to do any troubleshooting.
- gmueckl 5y ago
  Executing random VBScript or PowerShell script files from the net worked out so nicely on Windows... Why should the equivalent action on Linux be less than an insta-own of the user's system in practice?
- neatze 5y ago
  This was the reason why I switched to Linux more 10 years ago, in addition to copy/past, history of what has been done and taking notes is something I don't think is replaceable with GUI, furthermore eventually I realized all commands can be converted into scripts, that survive distro updates.
- FractalParadigm 5y ago
  In theory, absolutely you're right, it's much easier, and much more user friendly. Even if you have to type your command(s) in by hand, with tab-complete available in virtually every modern shell, it's quicker and more direct than fiddling through menus. Although in practice, and in personal experience, users have a tendency to become effectively illiterate as soon as words appear on a screen instead of a physical media. They've been trained to look primarily for symbols or keywords ("Settings", "Internet", etc.) and ignore all that "other fluff." They don't want to read the output of a command line to figure out what happened, they want a pop-up that gives them their answer directly.
- emptyfile 5y ago
  The average user never saw a CLI interface in their life. I sometimes wonder in which universe HN posters live in.
gspr 5y ago
I never understood this. Ok, so this way of troubleshooting is uncomfortable for some. But what's the alternative? Last time I used Windows the alternative seemed to be just not having the ability to troubleshoot at all.
- acover 5y ago
  The alternative is things just working time. I've never spent hours trying to debug why I need to reboot to get wifi back on Windows.
  - endgame 5y ago
    I spent months trying to debug why a windows update stopped my microphone working (which needs a powered 3.5mm socket). Reinstalling didn't fix it, and the mic worked perfectly on GNU/Linux the entire time. In the end I had to buy about $250 of USB audio equipment just to talk to my friends again. Since about 3-4 years ago, I have had many more "just works" experiences on GNU/Linux compared to other OSes.
  - aflag 5y ago
    Things don't always just work on windows. Just look at any windows forum. And the solution is usually doing things in a different way to not hit the problem or installing some third party software that does what you'd do by typing a few commands in a shell, but in a more cumbersome way (requiring a compiler, writing an actual program, etc). Anyway, the main issues in linux tend to be with proprietary software which were not properly ported to linux (because of the small market share) or that weren't ported at all (and you're running them with wine). It's a chicken and egg problem. If linux had a greater market share the proprietary stuff would "just work" as much as they do on windows, anyway.
  - spystath 5y ago
    For every couple "just works" cases there is a corresponding "doesn't work at all". Given the diversity of the PC as a hardware platform there are going to be edge cases. There is no avoiding that. I'm fairly certain there are cases where hardware "just works" on Linux but doesn't do so on Windows either because there is no driver any more, or because the driver is borked, or any other reason. And here's my anecdote: the wifi on a windows laptop I had once kept dying or dropping packets randomly. Turned out the shitty Killer wifi driver was doing some kind of "optimisation" <insert hand-waving here> to improve throughput. It took a lot of google-fu to find out what the problem was. And this is where I believe you are wrong wrt the command line. The command line is a powerful diagnostic tool and having text files as configuration is much more accessible than delving into a 13-level deep registry chain. Now, I'm not claiming that everything is smooth sailing on Linux, because it isn't, but the "I've spend hours trying to debug something" argument can be said for both sides and if it comes to that the mythical "average user" won't be able to sort it out by themselves in either case, command line or not.
ThaDood 5y ago
Personally, I would say this is a much smaller issue than GNU/Linux simply not being pre-installed on machines and sold at retailers. I think there would be much better adoption if people could simply walk into a store like Best Buy and buy a machine with GNU/Linux preinstalled and go about there day. I do agree that UX/UI consideration like terminal use are certainly a barrier but I do not think it is the biggest issue.
jcelerier 5y ago
... you never had to open a terminal and type netstat or some obscure bcdedit command on windows ?
- anotheryou 5y ago
  desperate "flush dns" command once, but it didn't even help :) So I'd say for gaming: no.
mgbmtl 5y ago
How is the experience on Mac? I was surprised it has only 2.54% market share (3x Linux). However, I agree that for the vast majority of folks, using a terminal is not an option. I played a few Steam games on Linux (not much of a gamer), haven't used Windows/Mac in 20 years, but I always assumed that Steam on Linux was an insurance policy against Microsoft one day changing things and killing Steam.
- asutekku 5y ago
  I don’t believe i’ve had to use terminal once when troubleshooting something on mac. Granted my overall experience has been more of a ”it just works” with macs than with Linuxes.
techrat 5y ago
> As long as any troubleshooting on linux will require the user to open terminal... You need to update your 10+ year old talking points if you want to have an honest debate about this, bud.

endgame 5y ago

I consider Windows trying to wheedle me into getting a Microsoft account or Apple's increasing number of restrictions on controlling my own system to be way more user-hostile than anything the GNU system does.

mschild 5y ago
Yes, but you are not the average user. Most people I know, mostly non-technical users including people playing computer games, simply dont care. Some have MS or Apple accounts, some dont. They simply want to use their devices with as little hassle as possible. They have no idea what a terminal is and dont care to find out.
- wayneftw 5y ago
  I don't think that this guy was trying to present himself as the average user. Obviously the people on this forum are not average users. Simply sharing a point of view does not an argument make.
Ocerge 5y ago
The average user could not care any less. I understand where you're coming from, but the HN archetype is an extreme minority.
ubavic 5y ago
An average computer user can make MS account in 5 minutes. After that, installing and playing some game is a two click process. Experienced Linux user can spend whole weekend configuring drivers, and still be unable to enjoy game. I would say that UX of a first user is much better
- techrat 5y ago
  Uh huh. Ask me how I know you've never used a Linux distribution before. We could easily have an honest debate about operating systems if you didn't decide to be so dishonest about the actual process. Ubuntu itself has less steps during the installation process than Windows 10 does. From there, Software Center, Steam. Click install. Done. Drivers are already installed and don't need to be 'configured.'
  - ubavic 5y ago
    I use both Windows and Linux for a long time, and I tried Steam on both platforms in last two years. On Windows, game installation worked perfectly every single time. On Linux, I firstly needed to instal Xorg (because Steam couldn’t start under wayland). After that I spend whole day configuring drivers (I switched from Noveau to proprietary and then back) because I couldn’t get full performance from my card. As time went by, and I tried more and more games, I regularly needed to apply some ad hoc fixes (if you open protondb you will see that most of games sometimes need manual adjustments). I must say that some games worked perfectly under Linux, but I still can’t recommend Linux to my friends gamers who never seen console in their life (and tbh, even I gave up on Linux gaming, and I just use Windows now). Also I don’t use Ubuntu. I would probably have nicer gaming experience if I did, but for some other reason I don’t want to use it.

thepangolino 5y ago

Honestly doing stuff by copy/pasting a comand line, is perhaps one of the most user friendly actions one could do. Especially compared to the where is charly game you have to play in Windows to do any troubleshooting.

gmueckl 5y ago
Executing random VBScript or PowerShell script files from the net worked out so nicely on Windows... Why should the equivalent action on Linux be less than an insta-own of the user's system in practice?
neatze 5y ago
This was the reason why I switched to Linux more 10 years ago, in addition to copy/past, history of what has been done and taking notes is something I don't think is replaceable with GUI, furthermore eventually I realized all commands can be converted into scripts, that survive distro updates.
FractalParadigm 5y ago
In theory, absolutely you're right, it's much easier, and much more user friendly. Even if you have to type your command(s) in by hand, with tab-complete available in virtually every modern shell, it's quicker and more direct than fiddling through menus. Although in practice, and in personal experience, users have a tendency to become effectively illiterate as soon as words appear on a screen instead of a physical media. They've been trained to look primarily for symbols or keywords ("Settings", "Internet", etc.) and ignore all that "other fluff." They don't want to read the output of a command line to figure out what happened, they want a pop-up that gives them their answer directly.
emptyfile 5y ago
The average user never saw a CLI interface in their life. I sometimes wonder in which universe HN posters live in.

gspr 5y ago

I never understood this. Ok, so this way of troubleshooting is uncomfortable for some. But what's the alternative? Last time I used Windows the alternative seemed to be just not having the ability to troubleshoot at all.

acover 5y ago
The alternative is things just working time. I've never spent hours trying to debug why I need to reboot to get wifi back on Windows.
- endgame 5y ago
  I spent months trying to debug why a windows update stopped my microphone working (which needs a powered 3.5mm socket). Reinstalling didn't fix it, and the mic worked perfectly on GNU/Linux the entire time. In the end I had to buy about $250 of USB audio equipment just to talk to my friends again. Since about 3-4 years ago, I have had many more "just works" experiences on GNU/Linux compared to other OSes.
- aflag 5y ago
  Things don't always just work on windows. Just look at any windows forum. And the solution is usually doing things in a different way to not hit the problem or installing some third party software that does what you'd do by typing a few commands in a shell, but in a more cumbersome way (requiring a compiler, writing an actual program, etc). Anyway, the main issues in linux tend to be with proprietary software which were not properly ported to linux (because of the small market share) or that weren't ported at all (and you're running them with wine). It's a chicken and egg problem. If linux had a greater market share the proprietary stuff would "just work" as much as they do on windows, anyway.
- spystath 5y ago
  For every couple "just works" cases there is a corresponding "doesn't work at all". Given the diversity of the PC as a hardware platform there are going to be edge cases. There is no avoiding that. I'm fairly certain there are cases where hardware "just works" on Linux but doesn't do so on Windows either because there is no driver any more, or because the driver is borked, or any other reason. And here's my anecdote: the wifi on a windows laptop I had once kept dying or dropping packets randomly. Turned out the shitty Killer wifi driver was doing some kind of "optimisation" <insert hand-waving here> to improve throughput. It took a lot of google-fu to find out what the problem was. And this is where I believe you are wrong wrt the command line. The command line is a powerful diagnostic tool and having text files as configuration is much more accessible than delving into a 13-level deep registry chain. Now, I'm not claiming that everything is smooth sailing on Linux, because it isn't, but the "I've spend hours trying to debug something" argument can be said for both sides and if it comes to that the mythical "average user" won't be able to sort it out by themselves in either case, command line or not.

ThaDood 5y ago

Personally, I would say this is a much smaller issue than GNU/Linux simply not being pre-installed on machines and sold at retailers. I think there would be much better adoption if people could simply walk into a store like Best Buy and buy a machine with GNU/Linux preinstalled and go about there day. I do agree that UX/UI consideration like terminal use are certainly a barrier but I do not think it is the biggest issue.

jcelerier 5y ago

... you never had to open a terminal and type netstat or some obscure bcdedit command on windows ?

anotheryou 5y ago
desperate "flush dns" command once, but it didn't even help :) So I'd say for gaming: no.

mgbmtl 5y ago

How is the experience on Mac? I was surprised it has only 2.54% market share (3x Linux). However, I agree that for the vast majority of folks, using a terminal is not an option. I played a few Steam games on Linux (not much of a gamer), haven't used Windows/Mac in 20 years, but I always assumed that Steam on Linux was an insurance policy against Microsoft one day changing things and killing Steam.

asutekku 5y ago
I don’t believe i’ve had to use terminal once when troubleshooting something on mac. Granted my overall experience has been more of a ”it just works” with macs than with Linuxes.

techrat 5y ago

> As long as any troubleshooting on linux will require the user to open terminal... You need to update your 10+ year old talking points if you want to have an honest debate about this, bud.