5 ms·

Thanks for commenting in a more civil manner and agreeing that where most of the meat comes from (factory farming) is abysmal. > This religious marketing isn’t

Thanks for commenting in a more civil manner and agreeing that where most of the meat comes from (factory farming) is abysmal. > This religious marketing isn’t helping your cause. Why is it religious marketing? What is religious about it? It's about ethics - not religion. Most humans not practicing slavery for example, is that also being religious? What's wrong with having moral principles? We say killing other humans is wrong. We say animal cruelty is wrong and yet a lot of humans practice or support it on a daily basis. Mostly because people don't know the reality of where their animal meat comes from and what the externalities are. This is down to some very good propaganda campaigns by the meat and dairy industry actually. Funny that there are things like Ag-Gag laws. What is this industry afraid of? That people would find out how horrific it is and god forbid making the right choice and not buy their products anymore? There is also the human cost. Could you work in a factory farm? Or just a slaughter house that kills any animals whether from factory farms or 'happy' farms? Could you kill animals day in day out, hearing their screams, smelling the blood and feces? Reports by folks who did that said they had to suppress their compassion and actually suffered from PTSD. A guest on Joe Rogan's show said he worked in that industry and couldn't last more than 2 weeks and he was an MMA guy, so could be considered tough. > This is mostly bullshit. Can you provide your sources? My comment was based on studies by the UN, Oxford University and other academic sources [0] [1]. Not just merely a blog post by some bloke with an opinion. > It’s a few cherry picked examples. And yet you're cherry picking yourself. Here are more athletes who chose to give up meat: https://www.greatveganathletes.com/all-athletes/ https://www.greatveganathletes.com/all-athletes/ - it's a long list. Have you actually watched the documentary? It's funny - the creator of the documentary, ex MMA fighter, actually said his performance went up. This is echoed by many other athletes. But they didn't say they are injury resistant. But most of us are not professional athletes, so it's a moot point. But if we chose to operate at a more athletic level, a plant based diet can still provide all we need. If you choose not to pay for cruelty - you still have to make an effort to eat healthily, which is easier to find out how nowadays. We are not carnivores. Yes we can eat meat, but it's not required for our survival if we have other food sources. > I need them to be healthy. You can be healthy on a plant-based diet. Check this resource by medical experts: https://www.pcrm.org/good-nutrition/plant-based-diets/nutrition-faq https://www.pcrm.org/good-nutrition/plant-based-diets/nutrit... If people absolutely can't give up animal meat, then at least hunt or raise and kill your own to ensure that suffering can be minimized to an absolute minimal level. But guess what, most of us couldn't do that and it's not scalable. ---- [0] https://www.un.org/sustainabledevelopment/blog/2019/05/nature-decline-unprecedented-report/ https://www.un.org/sustainabledevelopment/blog/2019/05/natur... [1] https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2018-06-01-new-estimates-environmental-cost-food https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2018-06-01-new-estimates-environme...

wyager 5y ago
> Most humans not practicing slavery for example, is that also being religious? Yes actually; it was a specifically Christian endeavor to globally eliminate slavery. Modern political Veganism is also Christian in origin, although it's been adopted as a religious crusade by Western State Secularists as well (which I suspect you are from what you've said so far). > Can you provide your sources I just think about it for 5 minutes; most of those UN reports are manifest nonsense. E.g. the feat mongering about cow farts. Here are two key terms for why I don't care about cow farts: bison, and fungal decomposition. > Have you actually watched the documentary? Why would I bother watching that piece of garbage? I've read the synopsis, and I see why it's total bullshit. https://www.biolayne.com/articles/research/the-game-changers-review-a-scientific-analysis/ https://www.biolayne.com/articles/research/the-game-changers... > the creator of the documentary, ex MMA fighter, actually said his performance went up Wow! They found a who guy claims his performance went up! Amazing! For every person who claims they're doing better on veganism (questionably, in most cases) there are dozens who match the stereotype. > We are not carnivores. I don't know about you, but my evolutionary ancestors (early Northern Europeans) were carnivores for at least 30-40% of the year. This is obvious if you think about it for 5 minutes. They almost certainly were still heavily meat-oriented most of the rest of the year. > then at least hunt or raise and kill your own I have done this in the past, and would recommend it, but as you say it's not scalable. That said, I think it's possible to meet net meat demand using acceptable (to me) farming practices. > You can be healthy on a plant-based diet. Check this resource by medical experts: There is almost no group of people in the world I trust lest than dietary "medical experts", and quite frankly people who take them seriously are gullible. In order for me to seriously consider the idea that veganism might be healthy, you need to explain something to me: why do 90+% of vegans look like crap? I'm not trying to be mean here; I am just completely unwilling to adopt a diet which will make me weak, androgen deficient, and emaciated, which seems to describe almost every vegan I know.
- uxcolumbo 5y ago
  Thanks for commenting again... I appreciate it's not easy to keep up the debate once a post dropped off the HN front page. My comments: > Yes actually; it was a specifically Christian endeavor I wasn't aware of that. But I'm talking about how it is today. Most humans, religious or not, agree that slavery is wrong. Same with people choosing to adopt a vegan mindset. It's wrong to oppress and exploit billions of sentient beings every year, just so we can enjoy a burger, when it's not necessary anymore for our survival. Nothing religious or cult like about that. Just being principled and saying no to cruelty and destruction. Simple as that. > I just think about it for 5 minutes; most of those UN reports are manifest nonsense It's not just the UN. The other link I shared was a 5 year Oxford Uni study. Is that nonsense too? There are countless of other academic studies about the damage our current large scale animal agriculture causes. It's not just GHGs. It's pollution and habitat loss which causes biodiversity loss. Damian Mander, ex special forces guy who now uses his skills to protect endangered animals, said it best: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUMGBwgGYWw&t=100s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUMGBwgGYWw&t=100s > That said, I think it's possible to meet net meat demand using acceptable (to me) farming practices. Any more details on this? With what would we replace factory farming, which is already highly optimized to get the most out of the land and animals (hence why animal welfare is so low or non existent). > There is almost no group of people in the world I trust lest than dietary "medical experts", and quite frankly people who take them seriously are gullible. I wasn't clear on this one. These are not just some dieticians. PCRM - the Physicians Committee combines the clout and expertise of more than 17,000 physicians. Again, have a look at https://www.pcrm.org/good-nutrition/plant-based-diets/nutrition-faq https://www.pcrm.org/good-nutrition/plant-based-diets/nutrit... > why do 90+% of vegans look like crap? There are millions of people out there who don't eat meat or don't consume any animals products. I doubt you've met them all. Again, vegan doesn't necessarily mean healthy. You have to make an effort to eat healthily. Likewise eating meat doesn't mean you're automatically eating healthily. > Why would I bother watching that piece of garbage? Thanks for sharing the biolayne article. I've not come across that one yet. He claims Gamechangers was biased, probably to an extend, and yet he is very biased and even funded by the egg industry[1]. But the most important point is that he agrees that you can function at an elite athletic level on a plant-based diet[0]. That was my whole point. Most of us are not elite athletes, so if they can do it, it should be even easier for folks not operating at that physical level. A lot of our food is already fortified with B12 or vitamin D, so you don't really have to do anything special. So many great meat free and nutritious recipes out there. I'm not bald (btw, a plant based diet doesn't cause someone to be bald) or scrawny and my doc said my blood work looks excellent and I should continue with whatever I'm doing. My thought process goes as follows: - We know that our current meat addiction is not sustainable and it can't be our main source of protein to feed the world. - We know animals suffer immense cruelty when they are being factory farmed or when they are being processed in slaughter houses. - We know the working conditions are horrendous in these slaughterhouses. Why would we want other fellow humans to go through that? I'd rather chop up vegetables all than killing and gutting animals all day. Which one would you choose? - We know we can survive and thrive without having to kill animals and consume their flesh. The most important step is that people say no to factory farming and vote with their wallet. This will force the market to come up with more sustainable alternatives, which is already happening. So given this choice, why wouldn't we go with the option that causes the least harm on multiple levels? ----- [0] "I’m not saying you can’t be an elite athlete and be vegan, you certainly can, but you can also be an elite athlete and NOT be vegan [...]" [1] In summary, Layne throws out accusations of cherry picking and bias, and yet exhibits unbelievable bias and cherry picking. His critique of the movie is more a critique of veganism. I really don’t think he watched the whole movie, and I am certain most of the on line critics have not seen a single minute. The movie was designed to show that you can get enough protein and be successful as a vegan athlete, even at a very high level of competition. From: http://proteinaholic.com/response-to-layne-nortons-review-of-the-game-changers/ http://proteinaholic.com/response-to-layne-nortons-review-of...

wyager 5y ago

> Most humans not practicing slavery for example, is that also being religious? Yes actually; it was a specifically Christian endeavor to globally eliminate slavery. Modern political Veganism is also Christian in origin, although it's been adopted as a religious crusade by Western State Secularists as well (which I suspect you are from what you've said so far). > Can you provide your sources I just think about it for 5 minutes; most of those UN reports are manifest nonsense. E.g. the feat mongering about cow farts. Here are two key terms for why I don't care about cow farts: bison, and fungal decomposition. > Have you actually watched the documentary? Why would I bother watching that piece of garbage? I've read the synopsis, and I see why it's total bullshit. https://www.biolayne.com/articles/research/the-game-changers-review-a-scientific-analysis/ https://www.biolayne.com/articles/research/the-game-changers... > the creator of the documentary, ex MMA fighter, actually said his performance went up Wow! They found a who guy claims his performance went up! Amazing! For every person who claims they're doing better on veganism (questionably, in most cases) there are dozens who match the stereotype. > We are not carnivores. I don't know about you, but my evolutionary ancestors (early Northern Europeans) were carnivores for at least 30-40% of the year. This is obvious if you think about it for 5 minutes. They almost certainly were still heavily meat-oriented most of the rest of the year. > then at least hunt or raise and kill your own I have done this in the past, and would recommend it, but as you say it's not scalable. That said, I think it's possible to meet net meat demand using acceptable (to me) farming practices. > You can be healthy on a plant-based diet. Check this resource by medical experts: There is almost no group of people in the world I trust lest than dietary "medical experts", and quite frankly people who take them seriously are gullible. In order for me to seriously consider the idea that veganism might be healthy, you need to explain something to me: why do 90+% of vegans look like crap? I'm not trying to be mean here; I am just completely unwilling to adopt a diet which will make me weak, androgen deficient, and emaciated, which seems to describe almost every vegan I know.

uxcolumbo 5y ago
Thanks for commenting again... I appreciate it's not easy to keep up the debate once a post dropped off the HN front page. My comments: > Yes actually; it was a specifically Christian endeavor I wasn't aware of that. But I'm talking about how it is today. Most humans, religious or not, agree that slavery is wrong. Same with people choosing to adopt a vegan mindset. It's wrong to oppress and exploit billions of sentient beings every year, just so we can enjoy a burger, when it's not necessary anymore for our survival. Nothing religious or cult like about that. Just being principled and saying no to cruelty and destruction. Simple as that. > I just think about it for 5 minutes; most of those UN reports are manifest nonsense It's not just the UN. The other link I shared was a 5 year Oxford Uni study. Is that nonsense too? There are countless of other academic studies about the damage our current large scale animal agriculture causes. It's not just GHGs. It's pollution and habitat loss which causes biodiversity loss. Damian Mander, ex special forces guy who now uses his skills to protect endangered animals, said it best: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUMGBwgGYWw&t=100s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUMGBwgGYWw&t=100s > That said, I think it's possible to meet net meat demand using acceptable (to me) farming practices. Any more details on this? With what would we replace factory farming, which is already highly optimized to get the most out of the land and animals (hence why animal welfare is so low or non existent). > There is almost no group of people in the world I trust lest than dietary "medical experts", and quite frankly people who take them seriously are gullible. I wasn't clear on this one. These are not just some dieticians. PCRM - the Physicians Committee combines the clout and expertise of more than 17,000 physicians. Again, have a look at https://www.pcrm.org/good-nutrition/plant-based-diets/nutrition-faq https://www.pcrm.org/good-nutrition/plant-based-diets/nutrit... > why do 90+% of vegans look like crap? There are millions of people out there who don't eat meat or don't consume any animals products. I doubt you've met them all. Again, vegan doesn't necessarily mean healthy. You have to make an effort to eat healthily. Likewise eating meat doesn't mean you're automatically eating healthily. > Why would I bother watching that piece of garbage? Thanks for sharing the biolayne article. I've not come across that one yet. He claims Gamechangers was biased, probably to an extend, and yet he is very biased and even funded by the egg industry[1]. But the most important point is that he agrees that you can function at an elite athletic level on a plant-based diet[0]. That was my whole point. Most of us are not elite athletes, so if they can do it, it should be even easier for folks not operating at that physical level. A lot of our food is already fortified with B12 or vitamin D, so you don't really have to do anything special. So many great meat free and nutritious recipes out there. I'm not bald (btw, a plant based diet doesn't cause someone to be bald) or scrawny and my doc said my blood work looks excellent and I should continue with whatever I'm doing. My thought process goes as follows: - We know that our current meat addiction is not sustainable and it can't be our main source of protein to feed the world. - We know animals suffer immense cruelty when they are being factory farmed or when they are being processed in slaughter houses. - We know the working conditions are horrendous in these slaughterhouses. Why would we want other fellow humans to go through that? I'd rather chop up vegetables all than killing and gutting animals all day. Which one would you choose? - We know we can survive and thrive without having to kill animals and consume their flesh. The most important step is that people say no to factory farming and vote with their wallet. This will force the market to come up with more sustainable alternatives, which is already happening. So given this choice, why wouldn't we go with the option that causes the least harm on multiple levels? ----- [0] "I’m not saying you can’t be an elite athlete and be vegan, you certainly can, but you can also be an elite athlete and NOT be vegan [...]" [1] In summary, Layne throws out accusations of cherry picking and bias, and yet exhibits unbelievable bias and cherry picking. His critique of the movie is more a critique of veganism. I really don’t think he watched the whole movie, and I am certain most of the on line critics have not seen a single minute. The movie was designed to show that you can get enough protein and be successful as a vegan athlete, even at a very high level of competition. From: http://proteinaholic.com/response-to-layne-nortons-review-of-the-game-changers/ http://proteinaholic.com/response-to-layne-nortons-review-of...