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I think this should be the death knell of cryptocurrencies. Or at least exchanges that allow the exchange of them for fiat.
by BrissyCoder 5y ago
I think this should be the death knell of cryptocurrencies. Or at least exchanges that allow the exchange of them for fiat.
- tacLog 5y agoI feel like this is a bold claim. I understand this to mean that you assume without crypto there would be less of a way to get payed for attacks like these? Or am I missing something here. Also, Do you have an evidence to support the argument: Crypto has increased cyber crime? (I hope that is an acceptable parse of your sentiment)
- vorpalhex 5y agoThese attacks didn't exist before crypto.
- cartoonworld 5y agoNo, they typically sold stolen information on private/underground/invite forums or IRC. Instead of crypto-randomware, it would be an all out worm or booter that would crush a service who would have to acquiesce to demands. Luckily, there weren't too many good services in existence, Cloudflare didnt exist, c10k was a mind blower, webdev was AJAX, XMLRPC, and CGI. The term TLS hadn't been coined, it was still called SSL, and nobody used it. Instead of a money orders, they would trade trade calling cards, NEXON codes, gift cards, other stolen data like "fulls" or exploits or accounts for compromised infrastructure. People would operate DDoS botnets for cash, spam you with V1@GRA ads from cracked boxes or hijacked relays, and the evergreen scam of fake RMAs. Let me know if "LOAD A PALLET OF CATALYST CHASSIS ONTO A BOAT OR ELSE ILL RELEASE YOUR SERIAL NUMBER DATABASE AND ALGORITHM ON MYSPACE" sounds scary or not. The real difference is now we're 28 years into "Eternal September"[0], the whole planet is participating more or less. Cryptocurrency is possibly an enabler, but if it weren't that it would be Apple or Google Play codes. Just straight up exfil and sell. In conclusion, these attacks didn't happen before Apple store or Google Play. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September
- sk5t 5y ago> it would be Apple or Google Play codes I don't think Apple or Google credits would be effective for large-scale ransomware. Not anonymous, could be stopped by a slightly-motivated central authority. It works for preying on individuals, however, because they don't have enough clout to force the issue.
- cartoonworld 5y agoNo, of course not. However, they could easily be used to exchange for access to data exfiltrated in the post exploitation phase. Or just money orders held in escrow a'la 1990's Ebay. The workflow is: Target->Crack->Retrieve->Store->Sell on hackforums Maybe there is a way to automate this old school method, but nobody developed it because why bother.
- the_why_of_y 5y agoHow practical is it to transfer a million USD in gift cards to a criminal in another country on the other side of the globe? What kind of logistics would be involved?
- xienze 5y agoAnother way to look at it is that cryptocurrency has been around for what, ten years? And it seems in the past six months or so there’s been more ransomware attacks, certainly more high-profile ones, than there has been in the previous 9.5 years. So clearly there’s more to it than just the existence of cryptocurrency.
- CookieMon 5y agoI recall they provided multiple payment options back when crypto was too hard for victims to obtain / figure out. e.g. this 2013 article from a quick web search, where the payment method dropdown contains Bitcoin and MoneyPak payment cards: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/10/youre-infected-if-you-want-to-see-your-data-again-pay-us-300-in-bitcoins/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/10/youre...
- aksss 5y agoThat’s demonstrably not true.
- BrissyCoder 5y agoThat's an accurate interpretation of what I'm saying. I don't think it's particularly bold. I don't have any hard evidence but I'm sure you could find some. I certainly don't remember ransomware attacks being very prevalent prior to last decade. They all seem to request cryptocurrencies (I can tell you're a coin head because you refer to them simply as crypto). Without cryptocurrencies ransomeware would largely go away. Sure there'd still be cybercrime, hacking, data breeches etc...
- AtNightWeCode 5y agoExtortion have been around for ages. There have been many payment methods used for it on the Internet. Prepaid credit cards, expensive phone numbers, gift cards, mobile refills, cash to private post boxes, bank accounts in sketchy countries and so on. But sure, cryptocurrencies makes it easier.
- aksss 5y agoWe paid a ransom with something you could buy from Walmart, I think they were called green cards or something (not to be confused with work permits). That was before crypto got huge but I think Bitcoin was around just not big yet. The cards at Walmart were preferred because at the time they were as good as anonymous cash and very easy for businesses to access. I remember that Walmart or the govt or both made some change where these didn’t work the same way and lost their shine for ransom payments. Thin on details but the as I recall the options for paying ransoms easily prior to crypto were tightening up. That said, I’m 100% against the idea of fighting crypto to solve this problem. The liberty of humanity needs anonymous cash despite the risks that come with it. Better to address these problems on the data security and resiliency front.
- tacLog 5y agoI have never been called a coin head before. It feels interesting, because on one hand I see what people are trying to accomplish with crypto, but generally I am against the current solutions because of the massive climate impact of proof of work algorithms. Judge me how you will, however, I do think I see your point that crypto might be contributing to this new form of extorsion. I was only trying to get more detail. Which has now been provided.
- zkmon 5y agoIntoxication with crypto makes people too blind to see the simple things in simple ways. They go hyper-technical and philosophical and forget the fact that crypto encourages and forms the basis for payments in ALL ransomware attacks in recent times. How hard is it to see that banning crypto would help reduce the crime?
- ThePowerOfDirge 5y agoTime to wake up, ban cryptocurrencies so this never happens again, then go back to sleep!
- the_why_of_y 5y agoThe argument by people who understand how banking systems work is that cryptocurrencies facilitate anonymous transfers of large amounts of money with zero risk to the criminals. https://www.stephendiehl.com/blog/ransomware.html https://www.stephendiehl.com/blog/ransomware.html
- jonny_eh 5y agoEspecially in the US.
- runawaybottle 5y agoWithout crypto, would it be impossible to extract cash from a company? What is the current mechanism used to get funds that the FBI can’t track down? Wire the money to a jurisdiction mostly out of our sphere of influence.
- enraged_camel 5y agoWire transfers themselves are straightforward to track, due to something called SWIFT. That’s one reason “money laundering” is a thing: it exists to obfuscate the trail of the money being traced.
- lurquer 5y agoMore difficult, but feasible. One way is to demand that a smaller amount of money be wired to 1,000 accounts throughout the world. You — the bad guy - own merely one of them. Difficult to trace them all before you empty your particular account.
- puranjay 5y agoBut then the amount would be 1/1000 and it wouldn’t be financially lucrative enough
- seventytwo 5y agoWhat does this have to do with cryptocurrencies?
- teej 5y agoCyber attacks nowadays demand their ransom payable in crypto.
- doomroot 5y agoIf we outlaw money no one will rob people don’t you know?
- sgt101 5y agoAnd with that I welcome you to the international union of communism.
- _ph_ 5y agoWhat would you rob from someone on the street, who isn't carrying any expensive item, especially no fungible ones? In the past, there were often abductions for ransom. This has mostly stopped, as the police always got the abductors when they tried to collect the money.
- zkmon 5y agoIntoxication with crypto makes people too blind to see the simple things in simple ways. They go hyper-technical and philosophical and forget the fact that crypto encourages and forms the basis for payments in ALL ransomware attacks in recent times. How hard is it to see that banning crypto would help reduce the crime?
- sneak 5y agoToothpaste's out of the tube. Banning the exchanges won't stop the ransomware.
- sk5t 5y agoWhy not? What's to prevent e.g. the U.S. Government from outlawing the use of exchanges, and/or outlawing the payment of cryptocurrency ransoms, just as it forbids globally the payment of bribes?
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- mythrwy 5y agoNothing. Also nothing prevents the US government from outlawing drugs. Likely with the same effectiveness. BTW are most of these hackers transferring to fiat through U.S. exchanges? I can't imagine that's the case but maybe it is.
- iamacyborg 5y agoIt’s not about stopping the hackers from accessing the exchange, it’s about preventing businesses from being able to pay ransoms.
- doopy1 5y agoThey can still send wire transfers.
- sk5t 5y agoI tend to believe that any laws requiring that corporations not transact using cryptocurrencies, period, would have extremely broad effect, much more so than attempts to stamp out the (surprisingly inelastic) demand by individuals for substances. Just imagine all of the perpetual accounting fraud and ongoing OpSec that would be necessary to cover up its use at the corporate level! Drugs (and yes, earlier, alcohol) present kind of an unique situation with respect to noncompliance with the law; not sure I can see the case for suggesting the government is destined to fail in enforcing the prohibition of anything whatsoever.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- judge2020 5y agoAnonymity is a double-edged sword.
- zkmon 5y agoNo, it just helps crime.
- doopy1 5y agoRansomware is not an innovation that came as a result of cryptocurrency, it was just accelerated by it. If you kill cryptocurrency, I guarantee the only thing it will do is increase the amount of the average ransom, because they will be harder to pay and to receive. Also, ransomware is a drop in the bucket compared to other attacks like business email compromise, which often go unreported.
- zkmon 5y agoYou might be invested in crypto. But that should not prevent you from seeing simple reasons and accepting that crypto helps crime. Would you?
- swebs 5y agoSo does cash, but its not like I'm clamoring to outlaw that.
- doopy1 5y agoYes, I am invested in crypto, and yes, I agree that crypto makes some forms of crime easier. There is no denying that, but I stand by my opinion regarding ransomware. Ransomware does not exist because of crypto, it's just the method of payment. If crypto goes away, then the method of payment will become more complicated, which in turn will likely make the ransoms higher, and the turn around times slower.
- dang 5y agoWe detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27718836 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27718836.