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>here's a very well-reasoned argument to be made by people who are experts in this area Honestly, this is an amazing essay thanks for sharing. From an anthropo

>here's a very well-reasoned argument to be made by people who are experts in this area Honestly, this is an amazing essay thanks for sharing. From an anthropological perspective this is exactly what I'm talking about, people wanting to feel like they're at some apex of history. Her arguments amount to "this was a coup attempt because I've redefined what a coup attempt means to fit this specific instance". The entire piece is an exercise in redefining what have long been well understood to be the hallmarks of a Coup actually are. Exaggerated language is throughout the essay, but there's a couple sentences that stand out to me: >>During the 2020 Black Lives Matter protests, Trump drew Joint Chiefs Chair General Mark Milley and Defense Secretary Mark Esper out of a White House meeting to follow him for a provocative photo-op in front of a historic church. Paramilitary forces under the president’s command cleared a passage for his group across Lafayette Square. Summarily debunked[1], but it's one of those enduring memes from this that strikes onlookers as so foul that that any attempt to correct the record is met with discordance and invective. "Paramilitary" forces? The Park Police are now a ... paramilitary force? Let me get my cousin in Montana on the phone, I'm sure he'd love to know this. >>As in the case of other coup attempts, the president’s actions have put us on the brink of civil war. Yes, a very "expert" opinion here. "On the brink of civil war", we are. We're in a situation where we're watching the same film, and seeing two different movies. I don't have anything to blame here but the technology we all help build which allows the narrative to be manipulated like this in real time, with no meaningful way to update. [1]https://greenwald.substack.com/p/yet-another-media-tale-trump-tear https://greenwald.substack.com/p/yet-another-media-tale-trum...

dragonwriter 5y ago
> Her arguments amount to "this was a coup attempt because I've redefined what a coup attempt means to fit this specific instance". No, its a classic autocoup (self-coup) attempt. Executive leader directs loyalists against another government power center for the purpose of either extending term beyond what has been secured through the regular process or seizing additional unauthorized powers in the existing term. It wasn't even covert, they were literally overtly directed to go to Congress for that end. Now, was it a poorly planned, uncoordinated, sloppily executed, and ultimately failure of an autocoup attempt? Sure, but that doesn't make it not a coup attempt.
- remarkEon 5y ago
  Everyone can keep saying this, but if the "autocoup" is so plainly obvious then why hasn't a single person been charged with a relevant crime?
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > Everyone can keep saying this, but if the "autocoup" is so plainly obvious then why hasn't a single person been charged with a relevant crime? Dozens of people have been charged, and a founding lifetime member of the Oath Keepers has plead guilty, to relevant crimes, to wit, unlawfully entering the Capitol with the intent to influece, obstruct, and/or interfere with the electoral vote count, and/or conspiring to do so. Its not like “attempt or conspiracy to effect an autocoup” is a separate offense under the US Code.
    - remarkEon 5y ago
      Is there a particular charge that has been levied against someone that is relevant to the "autocoup" that you think happened? I mean, beyond trespassing of course. The idea that "trespassing" into the Capital is something you can charge against the citizens of a democratic country, and not an Imperial Empire, is probably a separate question.
mullingitover 5y ago
She's not inventing a new term, self-coups are well known things that I guess you weren't aware of[1]. You keep citing Glenn Greenwald as if he still has some credibility left with people outside of Tucker Carlson's core viewers. His tortured analysis of the IG report has some major (and given Greenwald's courting of right-wing news consumers for the past few years, likely intentional) holes[2]. > The new IG report is being used by some Trump supporters and anti-anti-Trumpers to revisit coverage of that sort and argue that it unfairly assigned blame to Trump. While some mainstream outlets have misleadingly suggested the new IG report proves Trump didn’t order protesters to be cleared out, Trump supporters have gone even further and have used it to try to discredit the media in general. > ...However, the operation to clear Lafayette Square involved numerous other law enforcement agencies, including Washington, DC’s Metropolitan Police Department (MPD), the Secret Service, and the Bureau of Prisons (BOP). And the report makes clear that the various agencies involved in the chaos that unfolded outside the White House that day were not always in radio communication with one another — and overall were certainly not on the same page. > Notably, as lawyer Luppe Luppen highlighted on Twitter, the IG report indicates that Secret Service officers on the scene — who were aware of USPP’s operational plan — escalated the situation by using pepper spray against protesters, and by doing so before USPP officers had a chance to give demonstrators any warnings to disperse. The report says a Secret Service official later apologized to USPP officials for the incident, but didn’t explain why it happened. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-coup https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-coup [2] https://www.vox.com/2021/6/11/22527796/ig-report-trump-bible-lafayette-square-protest https://www.vox.com/2021/6/11/22527796/ig-report-trump-bible...
- remarkEon 5y ago
  >self-coups are well known things that I guess you weren't aware Nah, I'm aware of them, believe me. This just wasn't that. I think we're going to talk past each other at this point.

dragonwriter 5y ago

> Her arguments amount to "this was a coup attempt because I've redefined what a coup attempt means to fit this specific instance". No, its a classic autocoup (self-coup) attempt. Executive leader directs loyalists against another government power center for the purpose of either extending term beyond what has been secured through the regular process or seizing additional unauthorized powers in the existing term. It wasn't even covert, they were literally overtly directed to go to Congress for that end. Now, was it a poorly planned, uncoordinated, sloppily executed, and ultimately failure of an autocoup attempt? Sure, but that doesn't make it not a coup attempt.

remarkEon 5y ago
Everyone can keep saying this, but if the "autocoup" is so plainly obvious then why hasn't a single person been charged with a relevant crime?
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > Everyone can keep saying this, but if the "autocoup" is so plainly obvious then why hasn't a single person been charged with a relevant crime? Dozens of people have been charged, and a founding lifetime member of the Oath Keepers has plead guilty, to relevant crimes, to wit, unlawfully entering the Capitol with the intent to influece, obstruct, and/or interfere with the electoral vote count, and/or conspiring to do so. Its not like “attempt or conspiracy to effect an autocoup” is a separate offense under the US Code.
  - remarkEon 5y ago
    Is there a particular charge that has been levied against someone that is relevant to the "autocoup" that you think happened? I mean, beyond trespassing of course. The idea that "trespassing" into the Capital is something you can charge against the citizens of a democratic country, and not an Imperial Empire, is probably a separate question.

mullingitover 5y ago

She's not inventing a new term, self-coups are well known things that I guess you weren't aware of[1]. You keep citing Glenn Greenwald as if he still has some credibility left with people outside of Tucker Carlson's core viewers. His tortured analysis of the IG report has some major (and given Greenwald's courting of right-wing news consumers for the past few years, likely intentional) holes[2]. > The new IG report is being used by some Trump supporters and anti-anti-Trumpers to revisit coverage of that sort and argue that it unfairly assigned blame to Trump. While some mainstream outlets have misleadingly suggested the new IG report proves Trump didn’t order protesters to be cleared out, Trump supporters have gone even further and have used it to try to discredit the media in general. > ...However, the operation to clear Lafayette Square involved numerous other law enforcement agencies, including Washington, DC’s Metropolitan Police Department (MPD), the Secret Service, and the Bureau of Prisons (BOP). And the report makes clear that the various agencies involved in the chaos that unfolded outside the White House that day were not always in radio communication with one another — and overall were certainly not on the same page. > Notably, as lawyer Luppe Luppen highlighted on Twitter, the IG report indicates that Secret Service officers on the scene — who were aware of USPP’s operational plan — escalated the situation by using pepper spray against protesters, and by doing so before USPP officers had a chance to give demonstrators any warnings to disperse. The report says a Secret Service official later apologized to USPP officials for the incident, but didn’t explain why it happened. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-coup https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-coup [2] https://www.vox.com/2021/6/11/22527796/ig-report-trump-bible-lafayette-square-protest https://www.vox.com/2021/6/11/22527796/ig-report-trump-bible...

remarkEon 5y ago
>self-coups are well known things that I guess you weren't aware Nah, I'm aware of them, believe me. This just wasn't that. I think we're going to talk past each other at this point.