2 ms·

> There's also some historical context that everyone seems to be forgetting. Agreed. The difference between January 6 and previous incidents is there's a very

> There's also some historical context that everyone seems to be forgetting. Agreed. The difference between January 6 and previous incidents is there's a very well-reasoned argument to be made by people who are experts in this area that the events of January 6 were the culmination of a self-coup attempt we typically only see in developing nations[1]. Fortunately the execution was inept and the institutions were able to withstand the assaults against them, but there were serious efforts to accomplish it nonetheless. The actual assault on Congress was just one facet of the attempt. I've watched the footage of the rallies in the days before January 6. The people who assaulted the capitol were fed a firehose of lies for days and weeks (and actually going back to 2016) about the election which dovetails nicely with your point: > The point I'm trying to make is that the technology a lot of us work on allows violent lies to spread with unprecedented ease, but there isn't a real way for them to be walked back after they're out in the open. [1] https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/01/11/capitol-riot-self-coup-trump-fiona-hill-457549 https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/01/11/capitol-ri...

remarkEon 5y ago
>here's a very well-reasoned argument to be made by people who are experts in this area Honestly, this is an amazing essay thanks for sharing. From an anthropological perspective this is exactly what I'm talking about, people wanting to feel like they're at some apex of history. Her arguments amount to "this was a coup attempt because I've redefined what a coup attempt means to fit this specific instance". The entire piece is an exercise in redefining what have long been well understood to be the hallmarks of a Coup actually are. Exaggerated language is throughout the essay, but there's a couple sentences that stand out to me: >>During the 2020 Black Lives Matter protests, Trump drew Joint Chiefs Chair General Mark Milley and Defense Secretary Mark Esper out of a White House meeting to follow him for a provocative photo-op in front of a historic church. Paramilitary forces under the president’s command cleared a passage for his group across Lafayette Square. Summarily debunked[1], but it's one of those enduring memes from this that strikes onlookers as so foul that that any attempt to correct the record is met with discordance and invective. "Paramilitary" forces? The Park Police are now a ... paramilitary force? Let me get my cousin in Montana on the phone, I'm sure he'd love to know this. >>As in the case of other coup attempts, the president’s actions have put us on the brink of civil war. Yes, a very "expert" opinion here. "On the brink of civil war", we are. We're in a situation where we're watching the same film, and seeing two different movies. I don't have anything to blame here but the technology we all help build which allows the narrative to be manipulated like this in real time, with no meaningful way to update. [1]https://greenwald.substack.com/p/yet-another-media-tale-trump-tear https://greenwald.substack.com/p/yet-another-media-tale-trum...
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > Her arguments amount to "this was a coup attempt because I've redefined what a coup attempt means to fit this specific instance". No, its a classic autocoup (self-coup) attempt. Executive leader directs loyalists against another government power center for the purpose of either extending term beyond what has been secured through the regular process or seizing additional unauthorized powers in the existing term. It wasn't even covert, they were literally overtly directed to go to Congress for that end. Now, was it a poorly planned, uncoordinated, sloppily executed, and ultimately failure of an autocoup attempt? Sure, but that doesn't make it not a coup attempt.
  - remarkEon 5y ago
    Everyone can keep saying this, but if the "autocoup" is so plainly obvious then why hasn't a single person been charged with a relevant crime?
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > Everyone can keep saying this, but if the "autocoup" is so plainly obvious then why hasn't a single person been charged with a relevant crime? Dozens of people have been charged, and a founding lifetime member of the Oath Keepers has plead guilty, to relevant crimes, to wit, unlawfully entering the Capitol with the intent to influece, obstruct, and/or interfere with the electoral vote count, and/or conspiring to do so. Its not like “attempt or conspiracy to effect an autocoup” is a separate offense under the US Code.
      - remarkEon 5y ago
        Is there a particular charge that has been levied against someone that is relevant to the "autocoup" that you think happened? I mean, beyond trespassing of course. The idea that "trespassing" into the Capital is something you can charge against the citizens of a democratic country, and not an Imperial Empire, is probably a separate question.
- mullingitover 5y ago

remarkEon 5y ago

>here's a very well-reasoned argument to be made by people who are experts in this area Honestly, this is an amazing essay thanks for sharing. From an anthropological perspective this is exactly what I'm talking about, people wanting to feel like they're at some apex of history. Her arguments amount to "this was a coup attempt because I've redefined what a coup attempt means to fit this specific instance". The entire piece is an exercise in redefining what have long been well understood to be the hallmarks of a Coup actually are. Exaggerated language is throughout the essay, but there's a couple sentences that stand out to me: >>During the 2020 Black Lives Matter protests, Trump drew Joint Chiefs Chair General Mark Milley and Defense Secretary Mark Esper out of a White House meeting to follow him for a provocative photo-op in front of a historic church. Paramilitary forces under the president’s command cleared a passage for his group across Lafayette Square. Summarily debunked[1], but it's one of those enduring memes from this that strikes onlookers as so foul that that any attempt to correct the record is met with discordance and invective. "Paramilitary" forces? The Park Police are now a ... paramilitary force? Let me get my cousin in Montana on the phone, I'm sure he'd love to know this. >>As in the case of other coup attempts, the president’s actions have put us on the brink of civil war. Yes, a very "expert" opinion here. "On the brink of civil war", we are. We're in a situation where we're watching the same film, and seeing two different movies. I don't have anything to blame here but the technology we all help build which allows the narrative to be manipulated like this in real time, with no meaningful way to update. [1]https://greenwald.substack.com/p/yet-another-media-tale-trump-tear https://greenwald.substack.com/p/yet-another-media-tale-trum...

dragonwriter 5y ago
> Her arguments amount to "this was a coup attempt because I've redefined what a coup attempt means to fit this specific instance". No, its a classic autocoup (self-coup) attempt. Executive leader directs loyalists against another government power center for the purpose of either extending term beyond what has been secured through the regular process or seizing additional unauthorized powers in the existing term. It wasn't even covert, they were literally overtly directed to go to Congress for that end. Now, was it a poorly planned, uncoordinated, sloppily executed, and ultimately failure of an autocoup attempt? Sure, but that doesn't make it not a coup attempt.
- remarkEon 5y ago
  Everyone can keep saying this, but if the "autocoup" is so plainly obvious then why hasn't a single person been charged with a relevant crime?
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > Everyone can keep saying this, but if the "autocoup" is so plainly obvious then why hasn't a single person been charged with a relevant crime? Dozens of people have been charged, and a founding lifetime member of the Oath Keepers has plead guilty, to relevant crimes, to wit, unlawfully entering the Capitol with the intent to influece, obstruct, and/or interfere with the electoral vote count, and/or conspiring to do so. Its not like “attempt or conspiracy to effect an autocoup” is a separate offense under the US Code.
    - remarkEon 5y ago
      Is there a particular charge that has been levied against someone that is relevant to the "autocoup" that you think happened? I mean, beyond trespassing of course. The idea that "trespassing" into the Capital is something you can charge against the citizens of a democratic country, and not an Imperial Empire, is probably a separate question.
mullingitover 5y ago