7 ms·

Same as what happens when you don't pay your utility bills, your services stop.

jdlshore 5y ago
How do you enforce that? Taxes pay for roads, parks, local goverment offices, etc. Is somebody who is behind on taxes prohibited from using public roads? Are they prohibited from entering the courthouse?
- bena 5y ago
  You know how they want that enforced. They don't. She's talking about making taxation voluntary. Which seems on the wrong side of crackpot to me. Of course anyone who goes on and on about "the threat of violence" when talking about taxes is not going to discuss the issue in good faith. "Building libraries by gunpoint" is a thought terminating cliche. They're a brand of libertarian that elevates the very concept of being required to do something they don't want to as violence against them. They are exhausting to deal with. Taxes are the dues you pay to live in the community you stay. There's a lot the government should stay out of, but there's also a lot the government should be doing as well. And as long as the government should be doing things, it'll need money to do those things.
  - throwawayboise 5y ago
    So don't pay your taxes and refuse to leave your property. Sooner or later, men with guns will show up.
    - bena 5y ago
      Don't pay your mortgage/rent and that will also happen. Because that's what happens when owe money that you don't pay. You chose where to live when you bought that property. That choosing is an implicit agreement with the government of that area to pay them taxes in exchange for certain services (schools, roads, police, fire, etc). And you are part of that choice whenever elections come up. Sure, you may vote 'No' on every tax increase, but that doesn't exempt you. Because, once again, as part of the agreement you implicitly made, you agreed to abide by the decision of the group in order to live in the area.
      - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
        > Because that's what happens when owe money that you don't pay. When you owe money that you don't pay, and you refuse the normal first consequence (eviction).
        bena 5y ago
        That applies to what the person I responded to as well. So my statement still is fine within that context. Taxes aren't some special category of owed money that carries with it a unique consequence.
        WincysWife 5y ago
        If you don't pay income taxes they might throw you in jail. No private debtor can do that.
        AnimalMuppet 5y ago
        If you don't pay your mortgage, and you refuse to leave, they might still throw you in jail. Ditto if you don't pay your car loan, and you try to keep them from taking the car.
      - dantheman 5y ago
        Don't pay off the mob, and they show up because that what happens when you owe money that you don't pay.
        bena 5y ago
        Equating the government with the mob and taxes with extortion are also thought terminating cliches. Do you ever wonder why you have to make such hyperbolic analogies to even come close to a point?
        dantheman 5y ago
        There are very few interactions where someone comes up to you without your consent and demands money at the threat of force. If anyone other than the government tries to do that we'd call it theft. Look at how the Amish were able to opt out of social security.
- throwawayboise 5y ago
  Roads and other services can be paid for by their users, in driver license fees and vehicle registration fees. If you don't use the roads, you don't pay those fees. Sure, you will pay them indirectly if you have to have other people drive you around or deliver things, but it's still all voluntary.
  - jdlshore 5y ago
    That’s a different argument. You’re arguing that all taxes should be replaced by service fees. It’s also a problematic argument, because it’s highly regressive, extremely annoying or intrusive in practice (do I swipe my credit card every time I step into a park or call the fire department? Do I carry a tracker that monitors my activities and automatically bills me?) and also doesn’t address the question of social services. But that aside, WincysWife isn’t arguing for a change in how money is collected, but how non-payment is penalized. The statement was that you lose access to services. My question, which hasn’t been answered, is how that is enforced when so much that the government does isn’t a simple “service” that is provided to you directly. (It may be tempting to respond with another non-answer, such as “the government shouldn’t do those things,” but again that’s dodging the question. The government does do those things, and I’m trying to get at a real-world answer, not a hypothetical.)
    - tablespoon 5y ago
      > It’s also a problematic argument, because it’s highly regressive, extremely annoying or intrusive in practice (do I swipe my credit card every time I step into a park or call the fire department? It's a parody of libertarianism, but that's exactly how Ferengi society worked in Star Trek, e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVa8NaYTMIQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVa8NaYTMIQ, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNCX6InQ3ZQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNCX6InQ3ZQ. There was one five minute scene I remember as a kid where Quark literally was dropping money in a box a couple times a minute to get his questions answered somewhere.
    - WincysWife 5y ago
      I'm trying to reply but the website makes me wait between comments, probably because I have a new account. There are lots of ways to raise money that don't involve throwing people in jail or confiscating their property for not paying. Pay per service is one, but not the only one. One should be able to cancel their subscription to government services and not have to pay. The Amish already do this for payroll taxes, do they are exempt because they have a mutual aid society that takes care of their medical and retirement needs. We already live under a regressive tax system, especially for local governments which rely on sales and property taxes. Our current tax system is not convenient, and we pay a lot for poor service. It would be silly to make a fuss over someone using a park if they don't pay taxes, but it could be dealt with like any other trespassing. My local park is paid for by the HOA, not the government, and it's not that big of a deal. We already have a system in place for paying for the roads. We pay the gas tax, and we have a system where you have to have a driver's license and insurance, and in many places you have to pay property taxes and/or sales tax on your car, and pay registration fees. It would be a simple matter to suspend someone's license for not paying taxes. Or you could decide to allow non-tax-payers to drive as long as they pay the gas tax when they fuel up. I'm not saying that the government shouldn't necessarily do those things, but people should have the option to get their needs met by different organizations and not have to pay if they wish. For social needs like healthcare, education, welfare, that is very easy to do, just like the Amish do. Subscribe to a different organization that takes care of those things, and they will probably have a tithe or fee requirement, and rules, and that's fine as long as the person agrees to it. The only problem with the government system we have now is that we have no way of consenting or not consenting, and if we disobey, even if we are being peaceful and aren't violating anyone else's rights, we can be thrown in jail or have our property confiscated. It would really be quite simple to fix the flaw in the system. The only reason we haven't is because we're going off of a system made by people who were thinking outside of the box by rejecting monarchy. We then rejected slavery, gave rights to women, etc. We are still figuring out how to be moral.
- FreeSpeech 5y ago
  We don't tax tourists to use any of those services. In most jurisdictions public roads are funded through fuel and registration levies.
  - jdlshore 5y ago
    On the contrary, many jurisdictions have taxes that are directed at tourists/travelers. Usually collected through lodging taxes.
    - FreeSpeech 5y ago
      The vast majority of tourist taxes are minimal ($5-$50) and have no relation to duration (arrival/departure taxes). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourist_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourist_tax
  - krapp 5y ago
    We more than make up for the cost of tourists using public services with the money they spend on tourism. Also they pay sales tax where that's applicable.
    - FreeSpeech 5y ago
      Just as we more than make up for the cost of residents using public services with the money they spend on living costs.
      - krapp 5y ago
        The money residents spend on living costs is spent and circulates within the local economy, it doesn't go to the government (excepting sales tax, maybe.) How would a government fund infrastructure and services with that?
        FreeSpeech 5y ago
        Personal income taxes are only a recent phenomena, introduced to bolster war efforts. Nothing prevents a nation funding itself through corporate and consumption taxes alone.
- tablespoon 5y ago
  > How do you enforce that? Taxes pay for roads, parks, local goverment offices, etc. Is somebody who is behind on taxes prohibited from using public roads? Are they prohibited from entering the courthouse? Those people are usually against public roads. Utopia is a toll road, I guess. They have the same problem as many people who are more "against" something than for anything: in their focused zeal to stop that one thing they oppose, they propose a whole lot of other things that are actually worse or don't make sense. They also tend to have a hard time seeing that because they're so transfixed by the thing they hate that they're blinded.
Zhenya 5y ago
What's just as interesting to the naysayers: In California: why do people pay different (sometimes significantly) amount of taxes on identical houses next door to each other but receive the same level of service just based on WHEN and HOW MUCH they paid for the property?
ALittleLight 5y ago
Would the police stop taking my calls?
- adamredwoods 5y ago
  Another twist: if I pay more in taxes, would the police listen to me more? Can I use the police more to my benefit against those that pay less in taxes?
  - Turing_Machine 5y ago
    > if I pay more in taxes, would the police listen to me more? I'm pretty sure that's already the case, though it's typically not explicitly stated. Crimes in expensive neighborhoods often get a lot more police attention than crimes in the ghetto.
    - FreeSpeech 5y ago
      Most residents of wealthy neighbourhoods would disagree, e.g. the wealthiest district of Atlanta is actively seeking secession: https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/buckhead-secession-atlanta-crime/2021/05/29/30e25cce-be25-11eb-b26e-53663e6be6ff_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/buckhead-secession-a...
    - adamredwoods 5y ago
      I thought of this, too. It exists in a class/geographical system, but not at the individual level.
- WincysWife 5y ago
  They could stop taking your calls, but that's better than being thrown in jail or having your home confiscated for not paying taxes. And also, those who have an issue with corruption in their local police department could choose to not pay taxes that support the cops and instead hire a private security firm, or form a local gun group.
  - 5y ago
kchoudhu 5y ago
I like this. * Remove access to healthcare * Revoke driver's licenses * Remove access to courts I agree that while the government doesn't own you, you still operate inside the collective and have obligations towards it. Of course, this is no reason for facebook to mark you as an extremist.
- WincysWife 5y ago
  Half the American population uses private health insurance, but yes. It is better to lose services than to go to jail or have your home confiscated for not paying taxes. And some people can choose to join mutual aid societies that provide these services on a voluntary bases.
  - kchoudhu 5y ago
    If you want to opt out of taxes, the legal remedy you are seeking is renunciation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statelessness#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statelessness#United_States
- vkou 5y ago
  I like this, as well. Remove access to the justice system. If you aren't participating in society, there is no reason for society to lift a finger to protect you from theft, assault, fraud, deportation, etc. Subject them to the same entry restrictions as anyone else crossing a border into a country. Sovereign citizens will very quickly discover that participating in society provides them with a lot of value.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- throwaway6734 5y ago
  Do they lose access to police protection as well? Would it be possible for someone else to forcibly take that house?
  - 5y ago
godelski 5y ago
> your services stop. What services? Some of these are inalienable rights. Citizen or not.

How do you enforce that? Taxes pay for roads, parks, local goverment offices, etc. Is somebody who is behind on taxes prohibited from using public roads? Are they prohibited from entering the courthouse?

bena 5y ago
You know how they want that enforced. They don't. She's talking about making taxation voluntary. Which seems on the wrong side of crackpot to me. Of course anyone who goes on and on about "the threat of violence" when talking about taxes is not going to discuss the issue in good faith. "Building libraries by gunpoint" is a thought terminating cliche. They're a brand of libertarian that elevates the very concept of being required to do something they don't want to as violence against them. They are exhausting to deal with. Taxes are the dues you pay to live in the community you stay. There's a lot the government should stay out of, but there's also a lot the government should be doing as well. And as long as the government should be doing things, it'll need money to do those things.
- throwawayboise 5y ago
  So don't pay your taxes and refuse to leave your property. Sooner or later, men with guns will show up.
  - bena 5y ago
    Don't pay your mortgage/rent and that will also happen. Because that's what happens when owe money that you don't pay. You chose where to live when you bought that property. That choosing is an implicit agreement with the government of that area to pay them taxes in exchange for certain services (schools, roads, police, fire, etc). And you are part of that choice whenever elections come up. Sure, you may vote 'No' on every tax increase, but that doesn't exempt you. Because, once again, as part of the agreement you implicitly made, you agreed to abide by the decision of the group in order to live in the area.
    - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
      > Because that's what happens when owe money that you don't pay. When you owe money that you don't pay, and you refuse the normal first consequence (eviction).
      - bena 5y ago
        That applies to what the person I responded to as well. So my statement still is fine within that context. Taxes aren't some special category of owed money that carries with it a unique consequence.
        WincysWife 5y ago
        If you don't pay income taxes they might throw you in jail. No private debtor can do that.
        AnimalMuppet 5y ago
        If you don't pay your mortgage, and you refuse to leave, they might still throw you in jail. Ditto if you don't pay your car loan, and you try to keep them from taking the car.
    - dantheman 5y ago
      Don't pay off the mob, and they show up because that what happens when you owe money that you don't pay.
      - bena 5y ago
        Equating the government with the mob and taxes with extortion are also thought terminating cliches. Do you ever wonder why you have to make such hyperbolic analogies to even come close to a point?
        dantheman 5y ago
        There are very few interactions where someone comes up to you without your consent and demands money at the threat of force. If anyone other than the government tries to do that we'd call it theft. Look at how the Amish were able to opt out of social security.
throwawayboise 5y ago
Roads and other services can be paid for by their users, in driver license fees and vehicle registration fees. If you don't use the roads, you don't pay those fees. Sure, you will pay them indirectly if you have to have other people drive you around or deliver things, but it's still all voluntary.
- jdlshore 5y ago
  That’s a different argument. You’re arguing that all taxes should be replaced by service fees. It’s also a problematic argument, because it’s highly regressive, extremely annoying or intrusive in practice (do I swipe my credit card every time I step into a park or call the fire department? Do I carry a tracker that monitors my activities and automatically bills me?) and also doesn’t address the question of social services. But that aside, WincysWife isn’t arguing for a change in how money is collected, but how non-payment is penalized. The statement was that you lose access to services. My question, which hasn’t been answered, is how that is enforced when so much that the government does isn’t a simple “service” that is provided to you directly. (It may be tempting to respond with another non-answer, such as “the government shouldn’t do those things,” but again that’s dodging the question. The government does do those things, and I’m trying to get at a real-world answer, not a hypothetical.)
  - tablespoon 5y ago
    > It’s also a problematic argument, because it’s highly regressive, extremely annoying or intrusive in practice (do I swipe my credit card every time I step into a park or call the fire department? It's a parody of libertarianism, but that's exactly how Ferengi society worked in Star Trek, e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVa8NaYTMIQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVa8NaYTMIQ, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNCX6InQ3ZQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNCX6InQ3ZQ. There was one five minute scene I remember as a kid where Quark literally was dropping money in a box a couple times a minute to get his questions answered somewhere.
  - WincysWife 5y ago
    I'm trying to reply but the website makes me wait between comments, probably because I have a new account. There are lots of ways to raise money that don't involve throwing people in jail or confiscating their property for not paying. Pay per service is one, but not the only one. One should be able to cancel their subscription to government services and not have to pay. The Amish already do this for payroll taxes, do they are exempt because they have a mutual aid society that takes care of their medical and retirement needs. We already live under a regressive tax system, especially for local governments which rely on sales and property taxes. Our current tax system is not convenient, and we pay a lot for poor service. It would be silly to make a fuss over someone using a park if they don't pay taxes, but it could be dealt with like any other trespassing. My local park is paid for by the HOA, not the government, and it's not that big of a deal. We already have a system in place for paying for the roads. We pay the gas tax, and we have a system where you have to have a driver's license and insurance, and in many places you have to pay property taxes and/or sales tax on your car, and pay registration fees. It would be a simple matter to suspend someone's license for not paying taxes. Or you could decide to allow non-tax-payers to drive as long as they pay the gas tax when they fuel up. I'm not saying that the government shouldn't necessarily do those things, but people should have the option to get their needs met by different organizations and not have to pay if they wish. For social needs like healthcare, education, welfare, that is very easy to do, just like the Amish do. Subscribe to a different organization that takes care of those things, and they will probably have a tithe or fee requirement, and rules, and that's fine as long as the person agrees to it. The only problem with the government system we have now is that we have no way of consenting or not consenting, and if we disobey, even if we are being peaceful and aren't violating anyone else's rights, we can be thrown in jail or have our property confiscated. It would really be quite simple to fix the flaw in the system. The only reason we haven't is because we're going off of a system made by people who were thinking outside of the box by rejecting monarchy. We then rejected slavery, gave rights to women, etc. We are still figuring out how to be moral.
FreeSpeech 5y ago
We don't tax tourists to use any of those services. In most jurisdictions public roads are funded through fuel and registration levies.
- jdlshore 5y ago
  On the contrary, many jurisdictions have taxes that are directed at tourists/travelers. Usually collected through lodging taxes.
  - FreeSpeech 5y ago
    The vast majority of tourist taxes are minimal ($5-$50) and have no relation to duration (arrival/departure taxes). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourist_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourist_tax
- krapp 5y ago
  We more than make up for the cost of tourists using public services with the money they spend on tourism. Also they pay sales tax where that's applicable.
  - FreeSpeech 5y ago
    Just as we more than make up for the cost of residents using public services with the money they spend on living costs.
    - krapp 5y ago
      The money residents spend on living costs is spent and circulates within the local economy, it doesn't go to the government (excepting sales tax, maybe.) How would a government fund infrastructure and services with that?
      - FreeSpeech 5y ago
        Personal income taxes are only a recent phenomena, introduced to bolster war efforts. Nothing prevents a nation funding itself through corporate and consumption taxes alone.
tablespoon 5y ago
> How do you enforce that? Taxes pay for roads, parks, local goverment offices, etc. Is somebody who is behind on taxes prohibited from using public roads? Are they prohibited from entering the courthouse? Those people are usually against public roads. Utopia is a toll road, I guess. They have the same problem as many people who are more "against" something than for anything: in their focused zeal to stop that one thing they oppose, they propose a whole lot of other things that are actually worse or don't make sense. They also tend to have a hard time seeing that because they're so transfixed by the thing they hate that they're blinded.

Zhenya 5y ago

What's just as interesting to the naysayers: In California: why do people pay different (sometimes significantly) amount of taxes on identical houses next door to each other but receive the same level of service just based on WHEN and HOW MUCH they paid for the property?

ALittleLight 5y ago

Would the police stop taking my calls?

adamredwoods 5y ago
Another twist: if I pay more in taxes, would the police listen to me more? Can I use the police more to my benefit against those that pay less in taxes?
- Turing_Machine 5y ago
  > if I pay more in taxes, would the police listen to me more? I'm pretty sure that's already the case, though it's typically not explicitly stated. Crimes in expensive neighborhoods often get a lot more police attention than crimes in the ghetto.
  - FreeSpeech 5y ago
    Most residents of wealthy neighbourhoods would disagree, e.g. the wealthiest district of Atlanta is actively seeking secession: https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/buckhead-secession-atlanta-crime/2021/05/29/30e25cce-be25-11eb-b26e-53663e6be6ff_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/buckhead-secession-a...
  - adamredwoods 5y ago
    I thought of this, too. It exists in a class/geographical system, but not at the individual level.
WincysWife 5y ago
They could stop taking your calls, but that's better than being thrown in jail or having your home confiscated for not paying taxes. And also, those who have an issue with corruption in their local police department could choose to not pay taxes that support the cops and instead hire a private security firm, or form a local gun group.
- 5y ago

kchoudhu 5y ago

I like this. * Remove access to healthcare * Revoke driver's licenses * Remove access to courts I agree that while the government doesn't own you, you still operate inside the collective and have obligations towards it. Of course, this is no reason for facebook to mark you as an extremist.

WincysWife 5y ago
Half the American population uses private health insurance, but yes. It is better to lose services than to go to jail or have your home confiscated for not paying taxes. And some people can choose to join mutual aid societies that provide these services on a voluntary bases.
- kchoudhu 5y ago
  If you want to opt out of taxes, the legal remedy you are seeking is renunciation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statelessness#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statelessness#United_States
vkou 5y ago
I like this, as well. Remove access to the justice system. If you aren't participating in society, there is no reason for society to lift a finger to protect you from theft, assault, fraud, deportation, etc. Subject them to the same entry restrictions as anyone else crossing a border into a country. Sovereign citizens will very quickly discover that participating in society provides them with a lot of value.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
throwaway6734 5y ago
Do they lose access to police protection as well? Would it be possible for someone else to forcibly take that house?
- 5y ago

godelski 5y ago

> your services stop. What services? Some of these are inalienable rights. Citizen or not.