4 ms·

> if the attackers had succeeded in their aims to overturn a legitimate and fair election, that would've been the end of the United States as a constitutional r

> if the attackers had succeeded in their aims to overturn a legitimate and fair election, that would've been the end of the United States as a constitutional republic. Hyperbole to the Nth. Do we really want to go down the path of judging and punishing people for what they'd have been able to accomplish if they hypothetically had unlimited resources they really wouldn't ever have access to? Everyone would deserve a death sentence in all instances of just about anything.

mullingitover 5y ago
"I shouldn't be be held accountable for this bad thing I didn't even succeed at doing" is certainly an argument many current inmates have made.
HelloMcFly 5y ago
> Everyone would deserve a death sentence in all instances of just about anything. Now that's hyperbole to Nth degree. That's the slippery-slope fallacy all the way down to the most extreme conclusion. Let's instead stick to what we know: 1) Many of the rioters had an intent to de facto overthrow the government. They had guns, nooses, there were chat logs, etc. This is not conjecture. 2) Many of the rioters had the resources to do what they intended: they easily outmatched the Capitol Police forces, and backup forces were slow to respond. The physical barriers rioters encountered were not sufficient to the task. 3) What they they lacked was the knowledge of where to go to accomplish their aims. They were too slow to the chambers, and couldn't locate their targets. When they got close, those at the front lacked conviction after seeing their friend justifiably shot. I'm think it's quite appropriate to consider January 6th a "near miss" for our country as we know it, but given comments like yours and the revisionism happening before our eyes it doesn't quite seem we're out of danger. It is very appropriate to me to punish people for their actions, and sometimes for their intended actions. "Attempted Murder" is a crime for a reason, just because they failed to complete their task doesn't de facto exonerate them of wrong doing!
- iammisc 5y ago
  Honestly, I'm at the point where I hope you get your way. It'll hopefully lead to a proper secession of states so that the increasingly obvious fact that the country has split into two irreconcilable societies can be made a reality and we can all live in peace. Let's hope that the separation happens peacefully.
  - HelloMcFly 5y ago
    > Honestly, I'm at the point where I hope you get your way What is "my way"? That I want people who clearly intended harm to be subject to the consequences of that action (within our justice system and with the burden on the state to prove their guilt)? Is that so radical to you? I'm not asking anyone be hanged ffs. Nor am I advocating for any sort of detention for every person at the capitol that day. But this isn't something we should just try to forget, downplay, minimize, revise.
- brandonmenc 5y ago
  The original claim was that these particular rioters could have actually destroyed the Republic in that moment. I don't disagree that some of them were posing a threat of bodily harm to the people inside the Capitol, but that's a much different claim. > "Attempted Murder" is a crime for a reason And it is a lesser crime than murder.
  - HelloMcFly 5y ago
    > And it is a lesser crime than murder. As it should be. I never intended to imply otherwise. > The original claim was that these particular capitol rioters could have actually destroyed the republic in that moment. I think there is a reasonable chance that they could have, had the been able to murder the "enemies" on that day. What does that mean or look like? I don't know. But what happens when the only decision-makers left for our Republic are those that tacitly and explicitly supported this action, if not immediately then more and more in hindsight.
    - 5y ago

mullingitover 5y ago

"I shouldn't be be held accountable for this bad thing I didn't even succeed at doing" is certainly an argument many current inmates have made.

HelloMcFly 5y ago

> Everyone would deserve a death sentence in all instances of just about anything. Now that's hyperbole to Nth degree. That's the slippery-slope fallacy all the way down to the most extreme conclusion. Let's instead stick to what we know: 1) Many of the rioters had an intent to de facto overthrow the government. They had guns, nooses, there were chat logs, etc. This is not conjecture. 2) Many of the rioters had the resources to do what they intended: they easily outmatched the Capitol Police forces, and backup forces were slow to respond. The physical barriers rioters encountered were not sufficient to the task. 3) What they they lacked was the knowledge of where to go to accomplish their aims. They were too slow to the chambers, and couldn't locate their targets. When they got close, those at the front lacked conviction after seeing their friend justifiably shot. I'm think it's quite appropriate to consider January 6th a "near miss" for our country as we know it, but given comments like yours and the revisionism happening before our eyes it doesn't quite seem we're out of danger. It is very appropriate to me to punish people for their actions, and sometimes for their intended actions. "Attempted Murder" is a crime for a reason, just because they failed to complete their task doesn't de facto exonerate them of wrong doing!

iammisc 5y ago
Honestly, I'm at the point where I hope you get your way. It'll hopefully lead to a proper secession of states so that the increasingly obvious fact that the country has split into two irreconcilable societies can be made a reality and we can all live in peace. Let's hope that the separation happens peacefully.
- HelloMcFly 5y ago
  > Honestly, I'm at the point where I hope you get your way What is "my way"? That I want people who clearly intended harm to be subject to the consequences of that action (within our justice system and with the burden on the state to prove their guilt)? Is that so radical to you? I'm not asking anyone be hanged ffs. Nor am I advocating for any sort of detention for every person at the capitol that day. But this isn't something we should just try to forget, downplay, minimize, revise.
brandonmenc 5y ago
The original claim was that these particular rioters could have actually destroyed the Republic in that moment. I don't disagree that some of them were posing a threat of bodily harm to the people inside the Capitol, but that's a much different claim. > "Attempted Murder" is a crime for a reason And it is a lesser crime than murder.
- HelloMcFly 5y ago
  > And it is a lesser crime than murder. As it should be. I never intended to imply otherwise. > The original claim was that these particular capitol rioters could have actually destroyed the republic in that moment. I think there is a reasonable chance that they could have, had the been able to murder the "enemies" on that day. What does that mean or look like? I don't know. But what happens when the only decision-makers left for our Republic are those that tacitly and explicitly supported this action, if not immediately then more and more in hindsight.
  - 5y ago