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My wife got flagged as an extremist and started getting notices from Facebook yesterday every time she logged in. Which I mean, my wife believes that the gover

by wincy 5y ago

My wife got flagged as an extremist and started getting notices from Facebook yesterday every time she logged in. Which I mean, my wife believes that the government using the threat of violence to collect taxes is immoral, unethical, and that all transactions between all individuals should be voluntary and nonviolent. Which in terms of popular discourse, is very "extreme". She was thinking about running for local public office an a platform of "the government will not take away your propery for failure to pay taxes" which a surprising number of local people on Facebook supported. She's been going to Meetups and having people say "oh yeah I saw your meme, the government sucks, keep it up!" She bugs local politicans on Facebook, their ads keep popping up in her feed, so she'll ask them things like "do you think it's moral to seize someone's property when they can't pay their taxes?" which of course gets bullshit nonanswers from politicians. Nobody wants to say "I think it's moral to seize someone's house because they're behind on taxes". An authoritarian government wouldn't like someone like my wife, and they certainly wouldn't want her getting likes on Facebook. After all, what if she DOES run for office? What if she wins? What if other people like her win?

commandlinefan 5y ago
> what if she DOES run for office? I'd vote for her.
- WincysWife 5y ago
  Thank You!
zucked 5y ago
Total off-topic: out of curiosity, what levers does she think are moral to pull to encourage folks to pay taxes?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- throwawayboise 5y ago
  Fee for service like any other consumer transaction.
- intricatedetail 5y ago
  I'd say why government focuses on the weak when enforcing taxes and doesn't go after the rich and their notoriously tax avoiding multinational organisations?
  - WincysWife 5y ago
    Yes, property and sales taxes are regressive taxes. But all taxes should be voluntary because the government doesn't own you or your property.
    - tablespoon 5y ago
      > But all taxes should be voluntary because the government doesn't own you or your property. Yeah, it doesn't own it: the relationship is more fundamental than that. Government (and its primitive antecedents) is the system that enables you to own property in the first place, and taxes (or their equivalents) are the price of admission to that system. I wouldn't mind making taxes voluntary if it also meant surrendering property and other rights (though of course to be just that surrender could only happen after a formal renunciation of the obligation, not just a failure to pay). So you could choose to not pay taxes, but then all your property would become legally abandoned and you'd lose the protection of the law.
- WincysWife 5y ago
  Same as what happens when you don't pay your utility bills, your services stop.
  - jdlshore 5y ago
    How do you enforce that? Taxes pay for roads, parks, local goverment offices, etc. Is somebody who is behind on taxes prohibited from using public roads? Are they prohibited from entering the courthouse?
    - bena 5y ago
      You know how they want that enforced. They don't. She's talking about making taxation voluntary. Which seems on the wrong side of crackpot to me. Of course anyone who goes on and on about "the threat of violence" when talking about taxes is not going to discuss the issue in good faith. "Building libraries by gunpoint" is a thought terminating cliche. They're a brand of libertarian that elevates the very concept of being required to do something they don't want to as violence against them. They are exhausting to deal with. Taxes are the dues you pay to live in the community you stay. There's a lot the government should stay out of, but there's also a lot the government should be doing as well. And as long as the government should be doing things, it'll need money to do those things.
      - throwawayboise 5y ago
        So don't pay your taxes and refuse to leave your property. Sooner or later, men with guns will show up.
        bena 5y ago
        Don't pay your mortgage/rent and that will also happen. Because that's what happens when owe money that you don't pay. You chose where to live when you bought that property. That choosing is an implicit agreement with the government of that area to pay them taxes in exchange for certain services (schools, roads, police, fire, etc). And you are part of that choice whenever elections come up. Sure, you may vote 'No' on every tax increase, but that doesn't exempt you. Because, once again, as part of the agreement you implicitly made, you agreed to abide by the decision of the group in order to live in the area.
- littlestymaar 5y ago
  I also wonder what she thinks about people not paying their rents to their landlords.
  - nindalf 5y ago
    Seems to me that all private transactions are contracts. Contracts are meaningless unless they can be enforced. I’m not aware of any practical mechanism to enforce contracts other than the threat of state violence. Ostracising people who break contracts might work in a small community but wouldn’t scale to a large one. My understanding is that HN has no shortage of libertarians. Maybe one of them could tell us if there’s an alternate way to enforce contracts.
    - littlestymaar 5y ago
      AFAIK the libertarian view on this topic is pretty clear. Violating a contract is violating the “Non aggression principle” and the landlord is considered as acting in self-defense.
      - nindalf 5y ago
        And the landlord does what to the tenant who won’t pay? Threaten the tenant with a gun? Or does she rely on the coercive power of the State? The State that maintains a monopoly on violence.
        littlestymaar 5y ago
        Obviously, there's as many variants of libertarianism as there's libertarians, but AFAIK most of them agree that there should be no state. I think threatening the tenant with a gun to get the money then kick him out of the flat is the way it should go for most libertarians. You'd appreciate the irony of this not being an aggression. (there's a reason why libertarianism is almost only found in the US: it lays on the Far West myth a lot)
        5y ago
carabiner 5y ago
Is she a garden variety sovereign citizen, or something else?
- WincysWife 5y ago
  The sovereign citizens trip up because they image there is some legal loophole to allow them to opt-out. There is not. But there should be.
  - vkou 5y ago
    That legal loophole exists. They can leave the country and renounce their citizenship.
    - ceilingcorner 5y ago
      Exit taxes are pretty rough. You also cannot renounce citizenship if your explicit reason is to avoid taxes. Hotel California indeed.
      - vkou 5y ago
        If you have no intention of coming back, there is next to no recourse against you.
        ralph84 5y ago
        Good luck getting a bank account anywhere except in the most remote places of the world if you left the US with unpaid taxes. Everywhere else the banks will comply with FATCA and want nothing to do with you [0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Account_Tax_Compliance_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Account_Tax_Compliance...
        vkou 5y ago
        Okay, so you're not entitled to skip out on owed obligations, but there will be no future ones.
karmasimida 5y ago
Depends on her expression though, it could classified extreme.
adamredwoods 5y ago
Interesting take. I do think it's unfair to take away property for unpaid taxes. I think it depends on different states, but there are deferral programs available for people who are struggling.
FreeSpeech 5y ago
All fiat money is backed by men with guns: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJWi8VUHUzk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJWi8VUHUzk The real crime is that the American elite have all too many avenues to offset and postpone their taxes, none of which are available to the masses.
stemlord 5y ago
Your wife is awesome
eitland 5y ago
I feel you. Me and her obviously disagree, but the villification I feel I know. (Here it is the national broadcaster who has decided my friends are evil and I am dumb.)
bradlys 5y ago
What drove her to this worldview? I happen to have a friend who has a husband (well, not legally for soon to be obvious reasons) who has a very similar worldview to this. He doesn't pay taxes. Says he'll pay if he gets pursued by the IRS because it'll be too difficult to fight - but also refuses to participate in fiat currency. (Big on crypto - has the wife do all the fiat handling) Doesn't believe in taxation for the most part. Similar arguments about violence. I didn't really get deep into it - the wife was already pretty out there for a while. (They're both really nice and good people btw - they just have this unusual commitment to their worldview) Interestingly, I think he went even deeper on the views and she decided to reel it back a bit for herself. Suddenly she's not as hyper-capitalist anymore... It's one of those views that makes ya wonder how you get there and how you decide to go that deep. Admittedly, he's fiendishly rich now thanks to crypto so he can live the fantasy a little bit but it is something that I cannot see someone doing if they weren't rich already.
- WincysWife 5y ago
  I was not rich when I started believing this. My pipeline was Ron Paul then I read everything I could on Mises.org website, a lot of with were the writings of Murray Rothbard. But I listen to a lot of audiobooks from all kinds of authors about philosophy and politics. I do pay taxes, though, out of fear.
  - bradlys 5y ago
    Interesting. I got somewhat into Ron Paul in the lead up to the 2008 election - just ended up not really liking his social views and couldn't reconcile them with my views. I think I ended up liking Gravel more, really. I guess I'm more of a rock in a pond type person. Sometimes I see them and others and think, "coulda been me". Just didn't click on the right links, I guess. :)

by wincy 5y ago

commandlinefan 5y ago

> what if she DOES run for office? I'd vote for her.

WincysWife 5y ago
Thank You!

zucked 5y ago

Total off-topic: out of curiosity, what levers does she think are moral to pull to encourage folks to pay taxes?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
throwawayboise 5y ago
Fee for service like any other consumer transaction.
intricatedetail 5y ago
I'd say why government focuses on the weak when enforcing taxes and doesn't go after the rich and their notoriously tax avoiding multinational organisations?
- WincysWife 5y ago
  Yes, property and sales taxes are regressive taxes. But all taxes should be voluntary because the government doesn't own you or your property.
  - tablespoon 5y ago
    > But all taxes should be voluntary because the government doesn't own you or your property. Yeah, it doesn't own it: the relationship is more fundamental than that. Government (and its primitive antecedents) is the system that enables you to own property in the first place, and taxes (or their equivalents) are the price of admission to that system. I wouldn't mind making taxes voluntary if it also meant surrendering property and other rights (though of course to be just that surrender could only happen after a formal renunciation of the obligation, not just a failure to pay). So you could choose to not pay taxes, but then all your property would become legally abandoned and you'd lose the protection of the law.
WincysWife 5y ago
Same as what happens when you don't pay your utility bills, your services stop.
- jdlshore 5y ago
  How do you enforce that? Taxes pay for roads, parks, local goverment offices, etc. Is somebody who is behind on taxes prohibited from using public roads? Are they prohibited from entering the courthouse?
  - bena 5y ago
    You know how they want that enforced. They don't. She's talking about making taxation voluntary. Which seems on the wrong side of crackpot to me. Of course anyone who goes on and on about "the threat of violence" when talking about taxes is not going to discuss the issue in good faith. "Building libraries by gunpoint" is a thought terminating cliche. They're a brand of libertarian that elevates the very concept of being required to do something they don't want to as violence against them. They are exhausting to deal with. Taxes are the dues you pay to live in the community you stay. There's a lot the government should stay out of, but there's also a lot the government should be doing as well. And as long as the government should be doing things, it'll need money to do those things.
    - throwawayboise 5y ago
      So don't pay your taxes and refuse to leave your property. Sooner or later, men with guns will show up.
      - bena 5y ago
        Don't pay your mortgage/rent and that will also happen. Because that's what happens when owe money that you don't pay. You chose where to live when you bought that property. That choosing is an implicit agreement with the government of that area to pay them taxes in exchange for certain services (schools, roads, police, fire, etc). And you are part of that choice whenever elections come up. Sure, you may vote 'No' on every tax increase, but that doesn't exempt you. Because, once again, as part of the agreement you implicitly made, you agreed to abide by the decision of the group in order to live in the area.
littlestymaar 5y ago
I also wonder what she thinks about people not paying their rents to their landlords.
- nindalf 5y ago
  Seems to me that all private transactions are contracts. Contracts are meaningless unless they can be enforced. I’m not aware of any practical mechanism to enforce contracts other than the threat of state violence. Ostracising people who break contracts might work in a small community but wouldn’t scale to a large one. My understanding is that HN has no shortage of libertarians. Maybe one of them could tell us if there’s an alternate way to enforce contracts.
  - littlestymaar 5y ago
    AFAIK the libertarian view on this topic is pretty clear. Violating a contract is violating the “Non aggression principle” and the landlord is considered as acting in self-defense.
    - nindalf 5y ago
      And the landlord does what to the tenant who won’t pay? Threaten the tenant with a gun? Or does she rely on the coercive power of the State? The State that maintains a monopoly on violence.
      - littlestymaar 5y ago
        Obviously, there's as many variants of libertarianism as there's libertarians, but AFAIK most of them agree that there should be no state. I think threatening the tenant with a gun to get the money then kick him out of the flat is the way it should go for most libertarians. You'd appreciate the irony of this not being an aggression. (there's a reason why libertarianism is almost only found in the US: it lays on the Far West myth a lot)
        5y ago

carabiner 5y ago

Is she a garden variety sovereign citizen, or something else?

WincysWife 5y ago
The sovereign citizens trip up because they image there is some legal loophole to allow them to opt-out. There is not. But there should be.
- vkou 5y ago
  That legal loophole exists. They can leave the country and renounce their citizenship.
  - ceilingcorner 5y ago
    Exit taxes are pretty rough. You also cannot renounce citizenship if your explicit reason is to avoid taxes. Hotel California indeed.
    - vkou 5y ago
      If you have no intention of coming back, there is next to no recourse against you.
      - ralph84 5y ago
        Good luck getting a bank account anywhere except in the most remote places of the world if you left the US with unpaid taxes. Everywhere else the banks will comply with FATCA and want nothing to do with you [0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Account_Tax_Compliance_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Account_Tax_Compliance...
        vkou 5y ago
        Okay, so you're not entitled to skip out on owed obligations, but there will be no future ones.

karmasimida 5y ago

Depends on her expression though, it could classified extreme.

adamredwoods 5y ago

Interesting take. I do think it's unfair to take away property for unpaid taxes. I think it depends on different states, but there are deferral programs available for people who are struggling.

FreeSpeech 5y ago

All fiat money is backed by men with guns: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJWi8VUHUzk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJWi8VUHUzk The real crime is that the American elite have all too many avenues to offset and postpone their taxes, none of which are available to the masses.

stemlord 5y ago

Your wife is awesome

eitland 5y ago

I feel you. Me and her obviously disagree, but the villification I feel I know. (Here it is the national broadcaster who has decided my friends are evil and I am dumb.)

bradlys 5y ago

What drove her to this worldview? I happen to have a friend who has a husband (well, not legally for soon to be obvious reasons) who has a very similar worldview to this. He doesn't pay taxes. Says he'll pay if he gets pursued by the IRS because it'll be too difficult to fight - but also refuses to participate in fiat currency. (Big on crypto - has the wife do all the fiat handling) Doesn't believe in taxation for the most part. Similar arguments about violence. I didn't really get deep into it - the wife was already pretty out there for a while. (They're both really nice and good people btw - they just have this unusual commitment to their worldview) Interestingly, I think he went even deeper on the views and she decided to reel it back a bit for herself. Suddenly she's not as hyper-capitalist anymore... It's one of those views that makes ya wonder how you get there and how you decide to go that deep. Admittedly, he's fiendishly rich now thanks to crypto so he can live the fantasy a little bit but it is something that I cannot see someone doing if they weren't rich already.

WincysWife 5y ago
I was not rich when I started believing this. My pipeline was Ron Paul then I read everything I could on Mises.org website, a lot of with were the writings of Murray Rothbard. But I listen to a lot of audiobooks from all kinds of authors about philosophy and politics. I do pay taxes, though, out of fear.
- bradlys 5y ago
  Interesting. I got somewhat into Ron Paul in the lead up to the 2008 election - just ended up not really liking his social views and couldn't reconcile them with my views. I think I ended up liking Gravel more, really. I guess I'm more of a rock in a pond type person. Sometimes I see them and others and think, "coulda been me". Just didn't click on the right links, I guess. :)