5 ms·

>the Assange story isn't that important Do you realize that it's not hyperbole to say press freedom in the United States hinges on this case? American journali

by 34679 5y ago

>the Assange story isn't that important Do you realize that it's not hyperbole to say press freedom in the United States hinges on this case? American journalists have always been protected from prosecution for publishing factual information. If Assange is convicted, he will be the first. That would fundamentally change freedom of the press in the US.

giantrobot 5y ago
Assange isn't a US citizen. He's not charged with publishing the information but soliciting and attempting to assist in the exfiltration of the information. What Manning did was illegal whether you agree with her motivations or not. Soliciting someone with clearance to leak information and assisting them in the process is also illegal. It doesn't matter if Assange's assistance was effective or not. If all Assange did was publish information Manning brought to him, there would likely be no charges and they'd be easily dismissed otherwise. He'd have been clearly acting in the role as a journalist. But that's not what happened. Assange wants to be considered a journalist (with its protections) while at the same time playing spymaster and hacker.
- anonymousiam 5y ago
  It's okay when CIA convinces some non-US citizen to become an agent and provide secrets from their government. All governments do this. Somehow it's different in Assange's case because he is not government entity.
  - tablespoon 5y ago
    > It's okay when CIA convinces some non-US citizen to become an agent and provide secrets from their government. All governments do this. Somehow it's different in Assange's case because he is not government entity. It's pretty standard to be friendly to people who spy for you, and hostile to those who spy against you. If the FBI catches a Russian spy who doesn't have diplomatic cover, that person is going to get prosecuted (and if they do have cover they'll become persona non grata and expelled); ditto if the Russians catch an American spy.
  - giantrobot 5y ago
    All governments do that but those agents are persecuted when they're caught by the targeted government. If the spymaster is also caught they'll also be persecuted under the target country's laws unless they have some sort of diplomatic cover from their own government.
  - anonymousiam 5y ago
    Replying to myself because the two replies apparently missed the distinction between the entity doing the "coercion" (Assange/CIA) and the entity doing the spying (the agent, or Manning in this case). Nobody prosecutes the CIA/GRU/PRC for coercing others to spy.
    - giantrobot 5y ago
      > Nobody prosecutes the CIA/GRU/PRC for coercing others to spy. Except for expulsion of diplomats, arrests of agents, sanctions against government officials, indictments for officials and agents, and of course war. Besides all of those things that happen all the time nobody prosecutes spy agencies. eyeroll Assange is a self-styled spymaster that's not actually very good at the job. Spies that go around advertising their spying and bragging about conspiracies of which they are a part are not good spies.
- 34679 5y ago
  >He's not charged with publishing the information but soliciting and attempting to assist in the exfiltration of the information. He's charged with both. https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/wikileaks-founder-julian-assange-charged-18-count-superseding-indictment https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/wikileaks-founder-julian-assa... Criminal No. 1:18-cr-l 11 (CMH)Count 1: 18 U.S.C.§ 793(g)Conspiracy To Receive National DefenseInformation Counts 2-4:18 U.S.C. § 793(b) and 2Obtaining National Defense Information Counts 5-8: 18 U.S.C. § 793(c) and 2Obtaining National Defense Information Counts 9-11: 18 U.S.C. § 793(d) and 2Disclosure of National Defense Information Counts 12-14: 18 U.S.C. § 793(e) and 2Disclosure of National Defense Information Counts 15-17: 18 U.S.C. § 793(e)Disclosure of National Defense Information Count 18: 18 U.S.C. §§ 371 and 1030Conspiracy To Commit Computer Intrusion
  - giantrobot 5y ago
    Sorry but you're not correct. Here's [0] the law he's being charged of violating. You'll notice that intent is the crux of the disclosure subsections he's being charged under. He's being charged with publishing the information he received with the intent to do harm to the US. That's what the prosecution will argue and his defense for those charges will be entirely about intent. Independently intent would be a difficult thing to prove but his public actions and the conspiracy charges with will be used to establish intent. Like I said, he wants to claim all of the protections of journalism while he's acting as a spymaster. I don't really think it's possible to claim (objectively) any of Assange's actions with Wikileaks could be considered journalism. Besides not really practicing anything that might be considered journalism he also exercised a lot of editorial control in what Wikileaks didn't or wouldn't publish. [0] https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/793 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/793
    - 34679 5y ago
      You previously claimed he's charged with "soliciting and attempting to assist in the exfiltration of the information", "not with publishing". I fail to see how arguing intent invalidates one without the other. I copied and pasted the charges from the indictment, which can be found at the bottom of the page I linked.
tablespoon 5y ago
> Do you realize that it's not hyperbole to say press freedom in the United States hinges on this case? If that were actually the case, I'd expect the kind of breathless coverage from the rest of the press that Assange's fans are clamoring for. So it's either... 1. there's a conspiracy afoot, and the press (as a whole) is deliberately coordinating amongst themselves to suppress this significant development, because they're all in the pocket of... etc., etc.; 2. the mainstream press are all dumbasses who don't know the difference between their head and a hole in the ground; or... 3. it is hyperbole to say press freedom in the United States hinges on this case. My bet is with the latter. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like the far safer bet.
- 34679 5y ago
  Personally, I've long since stopped expecting breathless coverage of important events from a press that collectively prefers covering who Miley Cyrus most recently flashed her crotch to. You'll need to go beyond CNN, MSNBC, or FOX. “For the first time in the history of our country, the government has brought criminal charges against a publisher for the publication of truthful information. This is an extraordinary escalation of the Trump administration's attacks on journalism, and a direct assault on the First Amendment. It establishes a dangerous precedent that can be used to target all news organizations that hold the government accountable by publishing its secrets. And it is equally dangerous for U.S. journalists who uncover the secrets of other nations. If the US can prosecute a foreign publisher for violating our secrecy laws, there’s nothing preventing China, or Russia, from doing the same.” https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/aclu-comment-julian-assange-indictment https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/aclu-comment-julian-assa... "Don’t let the misdirection around “blown informants” fool you—this case is nothing less than the first time in American history that the US government has sought to prosecute the act of publishing state secrets, something that national security reporters do with some regularity." https://www.cjr.org/opinion/assange-extradition-espionage-act-press-freedom.php https://www.cjr.org/opinion/assange-extradition-espionage-ac... "For the sake of press freedom, Julian Assange must be defended" https://cpj.org/2019/12/press-freedom-julian-assange-wikileaks-defend/ https://cpj.org/2019/12/press-freedom-julian-assange-wikilea... "The most dangerous press freedom issue of 2020 is Trump’s prosecution of Julian Assange" https://freedom.press/news/the-most-dangerous-press-freedom-issue-of-2020-is-trumps-prosecution-of-julian-assange/ https://freedom.press/news/the-most-dangerous-press-freedom-... "The US should never have brought the case against the WikiLeaks founder. This attack on press freedom must be rejected" https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/dec/18/the-guardian-view-on-julian-assange-do-not-extradite-him https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/dec/18/the-gu... "The U.S. Government’s Indictment of Julian Assange Poses Grave Threats to Press Freedom. The Trump DOJ is exploiting animosity toward Assange to launch a thinly disguised effort to criminalize core functions of investigative journalism." https://theintercept.com/2019/04/11/the-u-s-governments-indictment-of-julian-assange-poses-grave-threats-to-press-freedoms/ https://theintercept.com/2019/04/11/the-u-s-governments-indi...

by 34679 5y ago

giantrobot 5y ago

Assange isn't a US citizen. He's not charged with publishing the information but soliciting and attempting to assist in the exfiltration of the information. What Manning did was illegal whether you agree with her motivations or not. Soliciting someone with clearance to leak information and assisting them in the process is also illegal. It doesn't matter if Assange's assistance was effective or not. If all Assange did was publish information Manning brought to him, there would likely be no charges and they'd be easily dismissed otherwise. He'd have been clearly acting in the role as a journalist. But that's not what happened. Assange wants to be considered a journalist (with its protections) while at the same time playing spymaster and hacker.

anonymousiam 5y ago
It's okay when CIA convinces some non-US citizen to become an agent and provide secrets from their government. All governments do this. Somehow it's different in Assange's case because he is not government entity.
- tablespoon 5y ago
  > It's okay when CIA convinces some non-US citizen to become an agent and provide secrets from their government. All governments do this. Somehow it's different in Assange's case because he is not government entity. It's pretty standard to be friendly to people who spy for you, and hostile to those who spy against you. If the FBI catches a Russian spy who doesn't have diplomatic cover, that person is going to get prosecuted (and if they do have cover they'll become persona non grata and expelled); ditto if the Russians catch an American spy.
- giantrobot 5y ago
  All governments do that but those agents are persecuted when they're caught by the targeted government. If the spymaster is also caught they'll also be persecuted under the target country's laws unless they have some sort of diplomatic cover from their own government.
- anonymousiam 5y ago
  Replying to myself because the two replies apparently missed the distinction between the entity doing the "coercion" (Assange/CIA) and the entity doing the spying (the agent, or Manning in this case). Nobody prosecutes the CIA/GRU/PRC for coercing others to spy.
  - giantrobot 5y ago
    > Nobody prosecutes the CIA/GRU/PRC for coercing others to spy. Except for expulsion of diplomats, arrests of agents, sanctions against government officials, indictments for officials and agents, and of course war. Besides all of those things that happen all the time nobody prosecutes spy agencies. eyeroll Assange is a self-styled spymaster that's not actually very good at the job. Spies that go around advertising their spying and bragging about conspiracies of which they are a part are not good spies.
34679 5y ago
>He's not charged with publishing the information but soliciting and attempting to assist in the exfiltration of the information. He's charged with both. https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/wikileaks-founder-julian-assange-charged-18-count-superseding-indictment https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/wikileaks-founder-julian-assa... Criminal No. 1:18-cr-l 11 (CMH)Count 1: 18 U.S.C.§ 793(g)Conspiracy To Receive National DefenseInformation Counts 2-4:18 U.S.C. § 793(b) and 2Obtaining National Defense Information Counts 5-8: 18 U.S.C. § 793(c) and 2Obtaining National Defense Information Counts 9-11: 18 U.S.C. § 793(d) and 2Disclosure of National Defense Information Counts 12-14: 18 U.S.C. § 793(e) and 2Disclosure of National Defense Information Counts 15-17: 18 U.S.C. § 793(e)Disclosure of National Defense Information Count 18: 18 U.S.C. §§ 371 and 1030Conspiracy To Commit Computer Intrusion
- giantrobot 5y ago
  Sorry but you're not correct. Here's [0] the law he's being charged of violating. You'll notice that intent is the crux of the disclosure subsections he's being charged under. He's being charged with publishing the information he received with the intent to do harm to the US. That's what the prosecution will argue and his defense for those charges will be entirely about intent. Independently intent would be a difficult thing to prove but his public actions and the conspiracy charges with will be used to establish intent. Like I said, he wants to claim all of the protections of journalism while he's acting as a spymaster. I don't really think it's possible to claim (objectively) any of Assange's actions with Wikileaks could be considered journalism. Besides not really practicing anything that might be considered journalism he also exercised a lot of editorial control in what Wikileaks didn't or wouldn't publish. [0] https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/793 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/793
  - 34679 5y ago
    You previously claimed he's charged with "soliciting and attempting to assist in the exfiltration of the information", "not with publishing". I fail to see how arguing intent invalidates one without the other. I copied and pasted the charges from the indictment, which can be found at the bottom of the page I linked.

tablespoon 5y ago

> Do you realize that it's not hyperbole to say press freedom in the United States hinges on this case? If that were actually the case, I'd expect the kind of breathless coverage from the rest of the press that Assange's fans are clamoring for. So it's either... 1. there's a conspiracy afoot, and the press (as a whole) is deliberately coordinating amongst themselves to suppress this significant development, because they're all in the pocket of... etc., etc.; 2. the mainstream press are all dumbasses who don't know the difference between their head and a hole in the ground; or... 3. it is hyperbole to say press freedom in the United States hinges on this case. My bet is with the latter. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like the far safer bet.

34679 5y ago
Personally, I've long since stopped expecting breathless coverage of important events from a press that collectively prefers covering who Miley Cyrus most recently flashed her crotch to. You'll need to go beyond CNN, MSNBC, or FOX. “For the first time in the history of our country, the government has brought criminal charges against a publisher for the publication of truthful information. This is an extraordinary escalation of the Trump administration's attacks on journalism, and a direct assault on the First Amendment. It establishes a dangerous precedent that can be used to target all news organizations that hold the government accountable by publishing its secrets. And it is equally dangerous for U.S. journalists who uncover the secrets of other nations. If the US can prosecute a foreign publisher for violating our secrecy laws, there’s nothing preventing China, or Russia, from doing the same.” https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/aclu-comment-julian-assange-indictment https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/aclu-comment-julian-assa... "Don’t let the misdirection around “blown informants” fool you—this case is nothing less than the first time in American history that the US government has sought to prosecute the act of publishing state secrets, something that national security reporters do with some regularity." https://www.cjr.org/opinion/assange-extradition-espionage-act-press-freedom.php https://www.cjr.org/opinion/assange-extradition-espionage-ac... "For the sake of press freedom, Julian Assange must be defended" https://cpj.org/2019/12/press-freedom-julian-assange-wikileaks-defend/ https://cpj.org/2019/12/press-freedom-julian-assange-wikilea... "The most dangerous press freedom issue of 2020 is Trump’s prosecution of Julian Assange" https://freedom.press/news/the-most-dangerous-press-freedom-issue-of-2020-is-trumps-prosecution-of-julian-assange/ https://freedom.press/news/the-most-dangerous-press-freedom-... "The US should never have brought the case against the WikiLeaks founder. This attack on press freedom must be rejected" https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/dec/18/the-guardian-view-on-julian-assange-do-not-extradite-him https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/dec/18/the-gu... "The U.S. Government’s Indictment of Julian Assange Poses Grave Threats to Press Freedom. The Trump DOJ is exploiting animosity toward Assange to launch a thinly disguised effort to criminalize core functions of investigative journalism." https://theintercept.com/2019/04/11/the-u-s-governments-indictment-of-julian-assange-poses-grave-threats-to-press-freedoms/ https://theintercept.com/2019/04/11/the-u-s-governments-indi...