7 ms·

Okay so I can go vegan but how to reconcile the pet dilemma? Surely my dog or cat cannot live on cauliflower and broccoli.

by r0b05 5y ago

poidos 5y ago
It would be a cruelty to your dog to force them to be meatless; from what I understand of vegan ethics, your dog's consumption of meat is ethical.
- sweetheart 5y ago
  Dogs at least can easily live happy, healthy lives on a plant-based diet. It isn't cruel at all, as long as you're feeding your pet all the vitamins and minerals they need.
- henryaj 5y ago
  > your dog's consumption of meat is ethical If eating meat is wrong, why does it matter whether it's a human or a dog doing it?
  - sweetheart 5y ago
    Depends on if one needs to do it to survive. This is why vegans try to hold humans accountable, but not lions. The "who" has very significant moral implications.
    - kitkat_new 5y ago
      dogs don't need meat to survive (and neither do they need to be hold captive by humans)
      - sweetheart 5y ago
        Oh I know, I agree with you :) I'm vegan. I was speaking more generally about how the idea of needing to eat animals to survive is what makes it ethical, but that is VERY rarely ever the case
JustVestedSeeYa 5y ago
Having a pet isn’t vegan.
kitkat_new 5y ago
set him free - who gives you the right to enslave "your" dog?
- OzyM 5y ago
  Is this sarcasm? I fail to understand how taking a dog from a loving household into scrounging on the streets is at all an ethical solution.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - moralestapia 5y ago
    Would you agree to be locked at some place even if "they treat you real good"?
    - OzyM 5y ago
      I agree it's not an ideal situation, but I honestly think it's better than the alternative. In your example of me personally, this is kind of the tradeoff most small humans (including myself) made for the first ten years of life. Supervision, lack of freedom, etc. in exchange for food, shelter, and hopefully companionship. As it's not ideal, I could agree with you on reducing breeding so we don't have to make this choice in the future. But currently, for domesticated animals who can't be released into the wild without high chance of extreme pain to themselves (dogs) or major ecological damage (cats), it seems like our kindest option is to put as many of them in loving & protective situations as possible.
      - summm 5y ago
        I feel this is a false dichotomy. If we really stop breeding pets, and do this consequently and with an honest effort, this will become a non-issue in, like, 10 years.
    - borski 5y ago
      You are making unstated assumptions: we have no idea if dogs, by this point, have been bred to seek human companionship, which we believe generally to be the case. If left alone, lacking companionship (since most pet owners don't tend to be abusive, though it can happen), I would argue the animal would potentially be much less happy on the street. That has nothing to do with me wanting to own a pet, and everything to do with there being plenty of pets available who I would rather get loved by someone than, well, die on the street.
mikestew 5y ago
I'm the vegan in this house, not the dogs. Just this morning on my daily pre-WFH walk I was reminded that many non-humans eat other animals (crows aren't quick about it, either) and that they do not share my ethics, nor should be expected to. Enjoy the canned rabbit, Rover.
- happytoexplain 5y ago
  I'm not sure your animal's will simply existing is a reasonable argument for allowing their will to be enacted, which sounds like what you're implying. And even if you're implicitly restricting this to food choice, your dog would not put animals in poor farming conditions of his own volition. But this is only a critique of your statement. I feed my animals farmed pet food.
  - borski 5y ago
    No, their dog would chase down and kill animals wherever they are, poor farming conditions or not, of their own volition. Animals are interested in eating meat, full stop. How that meat is raised is consequently of no interest to them, though it may be of interest to you. Technically, if we weren't blocking dogs from leaving the house, they would be out there and eating anything they could get their paws on; they would be enacting their will, on other pets, rodents, etc.
- moralestapia 5y ago
  >and that they do not share my ethics, nor should be expected to What would your reasoning be if your dog decides to bite a neighbor's leg? Edit: No reply, a classic :^)
  - borski 5y ago
    That the dog was doing what a dog is instinctually likely to do, depending on their temperament. This would be a failing of human training, because human training is intended to replace some instincts with learned behaviors, since dogs have such a 'people pleasing' mindset when trained with compassion and positive reinforcement. I'm not sure what your point was. Their dog doesn't share their ethics, nor should they be expected to. I would not expect a dog to 'de-escalate' a situation with another very angry dog, despite expecting humans to try and do that when faced with another very angry human.
tomweingarten 5y ago
Hi! I'm not a veterinary nutritionist, but I did used to teach metabolic biochemistry, and I spoke to a few veterinary nutritionists before putting my own dog on a vegan diet. Dogs are omnivores, so there are many vegan diet options dogs can live on healthily and happily. We like to think of dogs as friendly wolves, but they evolved a significantly different metabolism to co-exist with humans. I use a combination of Wild Earth and Bramble. Cats are obligate carnivores, so they require some chemicals (most notably Taurine) that don't naturally occur in plants. But there's no strong scientific barrier to us creating vegan cat diets through supplementation in the near future.
- OzyM 5y ago
  I don't really understand why you're being downvoted, this was my understanding as well. There are plenty of vegan dog foods that seem to have a history of success and meet all AAFCO standards. I think as far as vegan cat food, I'm not sure it will be healthy or feasible at scale until/unless there's something like Wild Earth's mouse-meat kibble based on cultured cells (under development, but no time frame given for expected completion). I'd love to hear the opposing perspective, though.
- verall 5y ago
  It is very difficult to imagine a vegan diet for cats that has enough plant-sourced protein while remaining palatable. Most commercial cat food is far too high in carbohydrates and is usually high in fat. This increases the palatability and lowers costs but is not healthy for the cats. Cats are picky eaters, and they can refuse foods even when starving.
- wyager 5y ago
  > Dogs are omnivores It may be technically true that animals like dogs and humans with meat-optimized digestive systems can survive off plant material alone, but that doesn’t mean it’s advisable. Neither of us can metabolize cellulose, both of us run into metabolic diseases with excessive carbohydrate consumption (e.g. diabetes), etc.
  - OzyM 5y ago
encloser 5y ago
I thought this was a very interesting pod cast about pet food. https://gimletmedia.com/shows/science-vs/v4h9wo5/pet-food-how-fancy-should-they-feast https://gimletmedia.com/shows/science-vs/v4h9wo5/pet-food-ho... TL;DL: Feeding pets the animal byproducts of our own food production is not only a good symbiotic relationship, but also contains more of the nutrients the pets need (as opposed to grain-free or other specialty diets). But, the specifics for your pet will vary based on their own needs and allergies.
parksy 5y ago
I haven't met a vegan who argues dogs should never eat meat. I have heard about it on nightly news from time to time, but I would think that's a very fringe, very uninformed niche of people who got the memo but didn't read it. The vegan perspective is less "meat is bad" and closer to "compassion for a creature and its rights to exist freely within its own context". A killer whale should be able to nom as many seals as it wants, a dog can have some raw meat to chew on.
- OzyM 5y ago
  I think the dog problem has more to do with you killing animals to feed to your dog. As far as I can tell, vegans don't oppose animals in the wild hunting to survive (i.e. a killer whale). However, paying for animals to be killed to feed your dog instead of buying vegan dog food seems like it falls under the same umbrella as buying meat for yourself. [Not really sure how to address obligate carnivores, like cats. Could see a vegan feeding their cat they had meat foods until they died naturally, but getting a cat with the intention of buying meat for it over its lifetime seems non-vegan.] Would welcome correction if I'm misguided, though.
  - parksy 5y ago
    Your second paragraph is basically why I will never own a pet. I can't ethically feed my pet, therefore owning a pet is unethical. I love dogs, clumsy waggy little fuckers, but I won't subject another being to my fuckery just because I can. edit: And yes, I teeter-totter on the ol' "you should adopt an abandoned pet" vs "feeding it for the rest of its life means other animals will die" vs "but you eat meat too you sanctimonious fuck" every time I think about the subject. At the end of the day, easier just to say "no pets" and move on with life for me.
    - OzyM 5y ago
      If feeding was the only thing keeping you from caring for an animal, you could either adopt an herbivorous pet (most small mammals, maybe?) or adopt an omnivore capable of eating a plant-based diet (dogs?). In either case it seems like a moral net positive to me. ...though I also understand the "no pets" and moving on attitude from a more personal angle. I've accidentally killed enough houseplants to scare me away from the "caring for a dependent living being" plan for now Edit: just wanted to note that "people who got the memo but didn't read it" is now one of my favorite phrases. I've never heard it before, but something about it delights me
ElijahLynn 5y ago
You can try not "owning" another animal. Problem solved. Make friends with the squirrels.
globular-toast 5y ago
Dogs can. Cats can't. Cats are obligate carnivores.
- summm 5y ago
  One reason more to not keep cats as pets. Stop breeding them, an the problem will solve itself within some years

Okay so I can go vegan but how to reconcile the pet dilemma? Surely my dog or cat cannot live on cauliflower and broccoli.

by r0b05 5y ago

Okay so I can go vegan but how to reconcile the pet dilemma? Surely my dog or cat cannot live on cauliflower and broccoli.

poidos 5y ago

It would be a cruelty to your dog to force them to be meatless; from what I understand of vegan ethics, your dog's consumption of meat is ethical.

sweetheart 5y ago
Dogs at least can easily live happy, healthy lives on a plant-based diet. It isn't cruel at all, as long as you're feeding your pet all the vitamins and minerals they need.
henryaj 5y ago
> your dog's consumption of meat is ethical If eating meat is wrong, why does it matter whether it's a human or a dog doing it?
- sweetheart 5y ago
  Depends on if one needs to do it to survive. This is why vegans try to hold humans accountable, but not lions. The "who" has very significant moral implications.
  - kitkat_new 5y ago
    dogs don't need meat to survive (and neither do they need to be hold captive by humans)
    - sweetheart 5y ago
      Oh I know, I agree with you :) I'm vegan. I was speaking more generally about how the idea of needing to eat animals to survive is what makes it ethical, but that is VERY rarely ever the case

JustVestedSeeYa 5y ago

Having a pet isn’t vegan.

kitkat_new 5y ago

set him free - who gives you the right to enslave "your" dog?

OzyM 5y ago
Is this sarcasm? I fail to understand how taking a dog from a loving household into scrounging on the streets is at all an ethical solution.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- moralestapia 5y ago
  Would you agree to be locked at some place even if "they treat you real good"?
  - OzyM 5y ago
    I agree it's not an ideal situation, but I honestly think it's better than the alternative. In your example of me personally, this is kind of the tradeoff most small humans (including myself) made for the first ten years of life. Supervision, lack of freedom, etc. in exchange for food, shelter, and hopefully companionship. As it's not ideal, I could agree with you on reducing breeding so we don't have to make this choice in the future. But currently, for domesticated animals who can't be released into the wild without high chance of extreme pain to themselves (dogs) or major ecological damage (cats), it seems like our kindest option is to put as many of them in loving & protective situations as possible.
    - summm 5y ago
      I feel this is a false dichotomy. If we really stop breeding pets, and do this consequently and with an honest effort, this will become a non-issue in, like, 10 years.
  - borski 5y ago
    You are making unstated assumptions: we have no idea if dogs, by this point, have been bred to seek human companionship, which we believe generally to be the case. If left alone, lacking companionship (since most pet owners don't tend to be abusive, though it can happen), I would argue the animal would potentially be much less happy on the street. That has nothing to do with me wanting to own a pet, and everything to do with there being plenty of pets available who I would rather get loved by someone than, well, die on the street.

mikestew 5y ago

I'm the vegan in this house, not the dogs. Just this morning on my daily pre-WFH walk I was reminded that many non-humans eat other animals (crows aren't quick about it, either) and that they do not share my ethics, nor should be expected to. Enjoy the canned rabbit, Rover.

happytoexplain 5y ago
I'm not sure your animal's will simply existing is a reasonable argument for allowing their will to be enacted, which sounds like what you're implying. And even if you're implicitly restricting this to food choice, your dog would not put animals in poor farming conditions of his own volition. But this is only a critique of your statement. I feed my animals farmed pet food.
- borski 5y ago
  No, their dog would chase down and kill animals wherever they are, poor farming conditions or not, of their own volition. Animals are interested in eating meat, full stop. How that meat is raised is consequently of no interest to them, though it may be of interest to you. Technically, if we weren't blocking dogs from leaving the house, they would be out there and eating anything they could get their paws on; they would be enacting their will, on other pets, rodents, etc.
moralestapia 5y ago
>and that they do not share my ethics, nor should be expected to What would your reasoning be if your dog decides to bite a neighbor's leg? Edit: No reply, a classic :^)
- borski 5y ago
  That the dog was doing what a dog is instinctually likely to do, depending on their temperament. This would be a failing of human training, because human training is intended to replace some instincts with learned behaviors, since dogs have such a 'people pleasing' mindset when trained with compassion and positive reinforcement. I'm not sure what your point was. Their dog doesn't share their ethics, nor should they be expected to. I would not expect a dog to 'de-escalate' a situation with another very angry dog, despite expecting humans to try and do that when faced with another very angry human.

tomweingarten 5y ago

Hi! I'm not a veterinary nutritionist, but I did used to teach metabolic biochemistry, and I spoke to a few veterinary nutritionists before putting my own dog on a vegan diet. Dogs are omnivores, so there are many vegan diet options dogs can live on healthily and happily. We like to think of dogs as friendly wolves, but they evolved a significantly different metabolism to co-exist with humans. I use a combination of Wild Earth and Bramble. Cats are obligate carnivores, so they require some chemicals (most notably Taurine) that don't naturally occur in plants. But there's no strong scientific barrier to us creating vegan cat diets through supplementation in the near future.

OzyM 5y ago
I don't really understand why you're being downvoted, this was my understanding as well. There are plenty of vegan dog foods that seem to have a history of success and meet all AAFCO standards. I think as far as vegan cat food, I'm not sure it will be healthy or feasible at scale until/unless there's something like Wild Earth's mouse-meat kibble based on cultured cells (under development, but no time frame given for expected completion). I'd love to hear the opposing perspective, though.
verall 5y ago
It is very difficult to imagine a vegan diet for cats that has enough plant-sourced protein while remaining palatable. Most commercial cat food is far too high in carbohydrates and is usually high in fat. This increases the palatability and lowers costs but is not healthy for the cats. Cats are picky eaters, and they can refuse foods even when starving.
wyager 5y ago
> Dogs are omnivores It may be technically true that animals like dogs and humans with meat-optimized digestive systems can survive off plant material alone, but that doesn’t mean it’s advisable. Neither of us can metabolize cellulose, both of us run into metabolic diseases with excessive carbohydrate consumption (e.g. diabetes), etc.
- OzyM 5y ago

encloser 5y ago

I thought this was a very interesting pod cast about pet food. https://gimletmedia.com/shows/science-vs/v4h9wo5/pet-food-how-fancy-should-they-feast https://gimletmedia.com/shows/science-vs/v4h9wo5/pet-food-ho... TL;DL: Feeding pets the animal byproducts of our own food production is not only a good symbiotic relationship, but also contains more of the nutrients the pets need (as opposed to grain-free or other specialty diets). But, the specifics for your pet will vary based on their own needs and allergies.

parksy 5y ago

I haven't met a vegan who argues dogs should never eat meat. I have heard about it on nightly news from time to time, but I would think that's a very fringe, very uninformed niche of people who got the memo but didn't read it. The vegan perspective is less "meat is bad" and closer to "compassion for a creature and its rights to exist freely within its own context". A killer whale should be able to nom as many seals as it wants, a dog can have some raw meat to chew on.

OzyM 5y ago
I think the dog problem has more to do with you killing animals to feed to your dog. As far as I can tell, vegans don't oppose animals in the wild hunting to survive (i.e. a killer whale). However, paying for animals to be killed to feed your dog instead of buying vegan dog food seems like it falls under the same umbrella as buying meat for yourself. [Not really sure how to address obligate carnivores, like cats. Could see a vegan feeding their cat they had meat foods until they died naturally, but getting a cat with the intention of buying meat for it over its lifetime seems non-vegan.] Would welcome correction if I'm misguided, though.
- parksy 5y ago
  Your second paragraph is basically why I will never own a pet. I can't ethically feed my pet, therefore owning a pet is unethical. I love dogs, clumsy waggy little fuckers, but I won't subject another being to my fuckery just because I can. edit: And yes, I teeter-totter on the ol' "you should adopt an abandoned pet" vs "feeding it for the rest of its life means other animals will die" vs "but you eat meat too you sanctimonious fuck" every time I think about the subject. At the end of the day, easier just to say "no pets" and move on with life for me.
  - OzyM 5y ago
    If feeding was the only thing keeping you from caring for an animal, you could either adopt an herbivorous pet (most small mammals, maybe?) or adopt an omnivore capable of eating a plant-based diet (dogs?). In either case it seems like a moral net positive to me. ...though I also understand the "no pets" and moving on attitude from a more personal angle. I've accidentally killed enough houseplants to scare me away from the "caring for a dependent living being" plan for now Edit: just wanted to note that "people who got the memo but didn't read it" is now one of my favorite phrases. I've never heard it before, but something about it delights me

ElijahLynn 5y ago

You can try not "owning" another animal. Problem solved. Make friends with the squirrels.

globular-toast 5y ago

Dogs can. Cats can't. Cats are obligate carnivores.

summm 5y ago
One reason more to not keep cats as pets. Stop breeding them, an the problem will solve itself within some years