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> "The companies were losing money and employees trying to satisfy Amazon and their constant abusive changes,” Tom Rask, an attorney for Last Mile and Triton, t

> "The companies were losing money and employees trying to satisfy Amazon and their constant abusive changes,” Tom Rask, an attorney for Last Mile and Triton, told Motherboard. "You have to hire numerous drivers who may or may not be working. One day Amazon dictates that you have thirty routes, the next day forty, then the day after twenty. You’re supposed to have enough drivers for back-up while Amazon is lowering pay. Amazon’s actions are unlawful." Sounds miserable. Id shut down too if I was losing money with only 1 client. If this were freelancing it’d be like having to be always available for one client 40 hrs a week, but not knowing if you’ll get to bill 5 hrs or 50… while your rates constantly decrease. There’s no point in having this business

alisonkisk 5y ago
This is basically how shift work in hospitality and service jobs works, and it's terrible. Some people claim it's done intentionally to prevent workers from working other jobs where they might get tired or escape the first job.
- NortySpock 5y ago
  Well, part of it might be intentional. The other part might be just the organic result of shoving the complications of varying hourly load and varying worker availability week-to-week onto those willing or desperate to work extra hours. Schedules get jumbled, work hours get fragmented like a garbage collector's memory management without a compaction step.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    >The other part might be just the organic result of shoving the complications of varying hourly load and varying worker availability week-to-week onto those willing or desperate to work extra hours. Much of the "middle" (or upper middle, however you want to label it) class's luxuries are based on goods and services being cheap enough due to the people at the bottom not having a choice but to deal with unsteady income and changing schedules. I am actually enjoying stores and restaurants closing early because they do not have enough employees, or prices going up so that people cannot constantly afford to eat out. It means there are people that can finally be home with family at dinner time, or if they are working, they are earning a premium for evenings, nights, weekends, etc and perhaps they themselves will be able to enjoy those services.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
paulpauper 5y ago
Freelancing just sounds awful for this reason. Yeah some ppl can make a lot but still seems like an awful way to make money if you are an american. Consulting is somewhat different
- danuker 5y ago
  The hourly rate is greater for a reason.
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  A lot of freelancers are just people doing one year contracts. In that context, that isn't too bad as engineers are constantly moving anyway.
- veerabadhra 5y ago
  In any business to business contract, don't be afraid to negotiate aggressive payment terms. I learned that the hard way with my first client being net-15. The higher the payment takes the settle, the more trade credit you are offering your client, increasing their PAYDEX score while messing with your cash flow. Ask for at least half up front.
  - reaperducer 5y ago
    Or hire a factoring company to take the risk out of it for you. Some banks provide this service. Sure, they take a percentage, but for a one man band, it's often worth the pace of mind to offload this work to a professional.
- tenebrisalietum 5y ago
  It's like any other business - you don't want to put all your eggs in one basket - either with suppliers, clients/customers, or employees. Optimally a freelancer will not be stuck with one client.
- antihero 5y ago
  Freelancing is great if you've built up a network of professional contacts who appreciate your work and will both contract you and recommend you to their network when someone is looking for work done. You typically get paid a far higher hourly rate than if you are working full-time - my contract day rate amounts to nearly double my full-time day rate. And presuming you keep delivering, impressing people, and gaining more skill and experience, it just goes up and up and up. Like anything else, it is much harder if you are on the bottom rung.
kjs3 5y ago
If you're building your business around 1 client who isn't the government, I would humbly argue you're doing it wrong.
- blck 5y ago
  It sounds like Amazon strong arms these companies into ONLY serving them. FTA: "The incident is notable as it appears to be the first public example in the United States of Amazon delivery service partners, small businesses that deliver packages exclusively for Amazon" This is the program for Amazon Delivery Service Partners https://logistics.amazon.com/ https://logistics.amazon.com/ Seems to me it's basically Amazon Flex but for people with capitol who want to be able to get up and started with their "own business." But when you join you can't contract for anyone else.
  - kjs3 5y ago
    That's exactly it. You get sold on "You get a slice of the amazing growth of Amazon", but are buying into the fact Amazon can cut you out at any time, for any reason, and you have no recourse.
    - WalterBright 5y ago
      > the fact Amazon can cut you out at any time, for any reason That's why you READ THE CONTRACT before signing it, because they can't do that unless it is in the contract. It's the whole point of a contract. Now, if you don't like the terms in the contract, negotiate. Yes, you can negotiate. Yes, you are entitled to negotiate. Yes, you are a sucker if you accept the other party's opening default contract.
      - mcguire 5y ago
        Or perhaps "don't get into a contractual relationship with someone much more powerful than you. But that's exactly the point of the system Amazon set up. They don't want to deal with UPS/USPS/etc.
WalterBright 5y ago
> their constant abusive changes What does their contract with Amazon say? Who would sign a contract that permits "constant abusive changes"?
- Arnt 5y ago
  Don't know what it says, but I know people who've signed contracts expecting the usual behaviour. I know a contract that promised action based on change requests within x business days, oops, the new customer sent 2000 change requests in a few months, more than the total of all older customers had sent in in years. Surprise! You may have heard the story about the Colo/ISP that signed up a large new customer (you know the name) with 95th percentile pricing for IP traffic and unlimited power to the cage? The ISP signed a contract that said 95th percentile pricing and expected the usual usage curve, the customer made sure the curve was a very different one. And used (much)_more power in the cage than the ISP had ever seen, too.
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    > expecting the usual behaviour Common advice is "put the expectations in the contract". For a significant sized ISP, this shouldn't have been the first dance they were invited to. For example, when I bought an Adjustable Rate Mortgage, I made sure the contract stipulated when the rates would be adjusted, and what formula would be used to adjust them. Not "whenever the bank wanted to change them, and to whatever rate they wanted to."
    - Arnt 5y ago
      Common advice is, yes... but I know specific examples of a very large ISP that missed something like that, and a middling-sized company, and my ex charlady. Errare humanum est, I suppose.
zh3 5y ago
That sounds pretty sweet compared to the zero-hours contracts in the UK [0] - no obligation to provide any work at all to the employee, hence 'zero-hours'. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-hour_contract https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-hour_contract

alisonkisk 5y ago

This is basically how shift work in hospitality and service jobs works, and it's terrible. Some people claim it's done intentionally to prevent workers from working other jobs where they might get tired or escape the first job.

NortySpock 5y ago
Well, part of it might be intentional. The other part might be just the organic result of shoving the complications of varying hourly load and varying worker availability week-to-week onto those willing or desperate to work extra hours. Schedules get jumbled, work hours get fragmented like a garbage collector's memory management without a compaction step.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  >The other part might be just the organic result of shoving the complications of varying hourly load and varying worker availability week-to-week onto those willing or desperate to work extra hours. Much of the "middle" (or upper middle, however you want to label it) class's luxuries are based on goods and services being cheap enough due to the people at the bottom not having a choice but to deal with unsteady income and changing schedules. I am actually enjoying stores and restaurants closing early because they do not have enough employees, or prices going up so that people cannot constantly afford to eat out. It means there are people that can finally be home with family at dinner time, or if they are working, they are earning a premium for evenings, nights, weekends, etc and perhaps they themselves will be able to enjoy those services.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

paulpauper 5y ago

Freelancing just sounds awful for this reason. Yeah some ppl can make a lot but still seems like an awful way to make money if you are an american. Consulting is somewhat different

danuker 5y ago
The hourly rate is greater for a reason.
MattGaiser 5y ago
A lot of freelancers are just people doing one year contracts. In that context, that isn't too bad as engineers are constantly moving anyway.
veerabadhra 5y ago
In any business to business contract, don't be afraid to negotiate aggressive payment terms. I learned that the hard way with my first client being net-15. The higher the payment takes the settle, the more trade credit you are offering your client, increasing their PAYDEX score while messing with your cash flow. Ask for at least half up front.
- reaperducer 5y ago
  Or hire a factoring company to take the risk out of it for you. Some banks provide this service. Sure, they take a percentage, but for a one man band, it's often worth the pace of mind to offload this work to a professional.
tenebrisalietum 5y ago
It's like any other business - you don't want to put all your eggs in one basket - either with suppliers, clients/customers, or employees. Optimally a freelancer will not be stuck with one client.
antihero 5y ago
Freelancing is great if you've built up a network of professional contacts who appreciate your work and will both contract you and recommend you to their network when someone is looking for work done. You typically get paid a far higher hourly rate than if you are working full-time - my contract day rate amounts to nearly double my full-time day rate. And presuming you keep delivering, impressing people, and gaining more skill and experience, it just goes up and up and up. Like anything else, it is much harder if you are on the bottom rung.

kjs3 5y ago

If you're building your business around 1 client who isn't the government, I would humbly argue you're doing it wrong.

blck 5y ago
It sounds like Amazon strong arms these companies into ONLY serving them. FTA: "The incident is notable as it appears to be the first public example in the United States of Amazon delivery service partners, small businesses that deliver packages exclusively for Amazon" This is the program for Amazon Delivery Service Partners https://logistics.amazon.com/ https://logistics.amazon.com/ Seems to me it's basically Amazon Flex but for people with capitol who want to be able to get up and started with their "own business." But when you join you can't contract for anyone else.
- kjs3 5y ago
  That's exactly it. You get sold on "You get a slice of the amazing growth of Amazon", but are buying into the fact Amazon can cut you out at any time, for any reason, and you have no recourse.
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    > the fact Amazon can cut you out at any time, for any reason That's why you READ THE CONTRACT before signing it, because they can't do that unless it is in the contract. It's the whole point of a contract. Now, if you don't like the terms in the contract, negotiate. Yes, you can negotiate. Yes, you are entitled to negotiate. Yes, you are a sucker if you accept the other party's opening default contract.
    - mcguire 5y ago
      Or perhaps "don't get into a contractual relationship with someone much more powerful than you. But that's exactly the point of the system Amazon set up. They don't want to deal with UPS/USPS/etc.

WalterBright 5y ago

> their constant abusive changes What does their contract with Amazon say? Who would sign a contract that permits "constant abusive changes"?

Arnt 5y ago
Don't know what it says, but I know people who've signed contracts expecting the usual behaviour. I know a contract that promised action based on change requests within x business days, oops, the new customer sent 2000 change requests in a few months, more than the total of all older customers had sent in in years. Surprise! You may have heard the story about the Colo/ISP that signed up a large new customer (you know the name) with 95th percentile pricing for IP traffic and unlimited power to the cage? The ISP signed a contract that said 95th percentile pricing and expected the usual usage curve, the customer made sure the curve was a very different one. And used (much)_more power in the cage than the ISP had ever seen, too.
- WalterBright 5y ago
  > expecting the usual behaviour Common advice is "put the expectations in the contract". For a significant sized ISP, this shouldn't have been the first dance they were invited to. For example, when I bought an Adjustable Rate Mortgage, I made sure the contract stipulated when the rates would be adjusted, and what formula would be used to adjust them. Not "whenever the bank wanted to change them, and to whatever rate they wanted to."
  - Arnt 5y ago
    Common advice is, yes... but I know specific examples of a very large ISP that missed something like that, and a middling-sized company, and my ex charlady. Errare humanum est, I suppose.

zh3 5y ago

That sounds pretty sweet compared to the zero-hours contracts in the UK [0] - no obligation to provide any work at all to the employee, hence 'zero-hours'. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-hour_contract https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-hour_contract