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> This is more or less how it should be. If Amazon isn't going to offer a good enough deal, then companies shouldn't move packages for them. Not really. These

> This is more or less how it should be. If Amazon isn't going to offer a good enough deal, then companies shouldn't move packages for them. Not really. These companies are basically committing suicide, because Amazon is in such a dominant position. The way is should be is that they could have put pressure on Amazon much earlier, instead of being forced into such extreme action. Nothing will change. Amazon will just shift to exploiting a different group of suckers through Amazon Flex, or go back to UPS for awhile until the lessons learned from this dissipate. It's not like there's a club of past & future delivery company operators that meets regularly, to keep the knowledge of how bad it is to work with Amazon alive. As the saying goes: "a sucker is born every minute."

relax88 5y ago
> It’s not like there’s a club of past & future delivery company operators that meets regularly Why not? “National Delivery Drivers Union” sounds pretty good to me for a name. If you want to negotiate with leverage against Amazon, you need to actually have the leverage. Why is collective bargaining so weak in this industry?
- tablespoon 5y ago
  > Why is collective bargaining so weak in this industry? I think because small companies, not workers are the actors here. If the companies themselves got together, it might be interpreted as some kind of illegal cartel. However, it's kind of interesting to consider the idea of a union of small companies (that's permitted only because they're too week vis-a-vis their customers/vendors that they can be explioted, akin to most employee/employer relationships). Also, if you quit the business, why would keep participating in an organization that has no more relevance to you?
  - bombcar 5y ago
    Cartels are illegal, but industry associations are not. It's a fine line, but it can certainly be walked.
    - gruez 5y ago
      What can an "industry association" do to pressure amazon?
      - toomuchtodo 5y ago
        Lobby to change the laws Amazon uses to exploit labor in this manner. Laws are mutable!
    - alisonkisk 5y ago
      Unions are legal too. No workers, no delivery company.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- kwhitefoot 5y ago
  Presumably for the same reasons that collective bargaining is broken in most US industries; lack of trust between employees, unions, companies, government together with the pervasive belief that only individual success matters. Briefly: lack of solidarity.
  - deadbunny 5y ago
    American exceptionalism is a helluva drug.
- commandlinefan 5y ago
  > National Delivery Drivers Union Actually, they're called the teamsters and they've been around since the 1800's.
  - smhenderson 5y ago
    The Teamsters represent employees, individuals that is. Not small companies.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- cartoonworld 5y ago
  Amazon fronts the startup afiak and controls who gets to start the business. Unionizing this is a tough nut, what you are witnessing is not a usual labor protest--this is a Management protest. The Independent operators are shuttering in protest rather than keep suckling.
  - deadbunny 5y ago
    If a company pays your startup costs, they are your only "client", they control how much your staff get paid, when they work, and where they work you do not own a business you are an employee with extra steps. Steps that only benefit Amazon.
    - cartoonworld 5y ago
      I guess you're right. Nice "flywheel", huh?
- somethoughts 5y ago
  Interesting - it could almost be like the National Association of Realtors. Perhaps similar to the National Association developed MLS and the backend APIs for Redfin and Zillow to access, a National Delivery Drivers Association could develop some sort of backend/API for facilitating delivery driver transactions for its members.
  - alisonkisk 5y ago
    NAR and the regional MLSes are different organizations.
- reaperducer 5y ago
  “National Delivery Drivers Union” sounds pretty good to me for a name. This already exists. It's called The Teamsters, and was formed over a hundred years ago by people fighting many of the same problems that modern "gig" delivery drivers face today. But because companies like Amazon and Uber pretend they're strictly technology companies, people don't put the two ideas together. (A "teamster" is someone who drives a team of horses. Think "stagecoaches" and "goods wagons.")
cartoonworld 5y ago
I have direct experience interacting with the Amazon delivery partner fleet operations. I don't disagree, I would like to add a few details to the discussion. There's one important nuance missing in all this and that is that the Fleet contractors, those who own and operate the ProMaster and MB step-vans, they are "independent operators" who are sole suppliers, totally beholden to Amazon. I suspect it is extremely limited to what extent they can leverage any power against amazon, aside from of course striking the means of production, likely forfeiting their work. The arrangement makes these events, to my mind, look like a much bigger sacrifice than it would in a normal market. I mean, just like you said, they up and closed shop rather than keep milking this cow! Maybe it's a bit sour. From what I can gather, the fleets are assigned routes and duties, and are prohibited from using their capital (The blue Amazon fleet vans) for other business prospects, obviously. This makes sense because it says AMAZON on the Van, and the Drivers wear Amazon uniforms. But these are ostensibly independent small businesses. Amazon, I believe, does front the capital expenditure for the vehicle acquisition, and they also require the maintenance to be accomplished on schedule or they levy a fine. The Operators take all the busines and insurance and training and health risks, and I'll bet there is no stipend for "PTSD from 5 more unreportable near miss accidents today." I worry that there is nobody with this kind of fleet logistics experience overseeing these operations. When Amazon decides to re-organize routes, the truck operators may find they are operating at a now reduced revenue stream, with no alternative but to acquiesce. Their fixed expenditures don't change too much, and while they still need to maintain the fleet and make choices about that, their payroll, etc with the added uncertainty of whether or not Amazon is gonna throw them a bone, I have witness that they are cutting corners. They can't liquidate the vehicles, because they are now drastically devalued from normal depreciation, Amazon branded (probably bonded somehow) and these things are pretty banged up. Also, I digress--the ProMasters kind of suck, but they do seem to keep cranking for now. It may be that perhaps those operators who cannot adjust to the required efficiency in operations should go under, forfeiting their start-up capital, but Amazon deigns the start-up worthy or not, and bequeaths the start up cash to these guys and gals. Amazon can leverage their incredible reputation, stock value, and cold-hard liquid cash to get the best deal on credit in a market where the interest rate is Zero. I don't know what the operators pay--but becha it ain't zero. I feel uncommonly conflicted about this arrangement.
stickfigure 5y ago
The thing that will change is that companies considering this kind of work will become aware of the risks. Through articles like this. The answer may simply be spreading the word.
alisonkisk 5y ago
Businesses can die. They aren't people. People can find other work. If suckers are happy, they aren't suckers. Of they aren't happy, they should refuse the job. Amazon can pay for what they need or shut down.

relax88 5y ago

> It’s not like there’s a club of past & future delivery company operators that meets regularly Why not? “National Delivery Drivers Union” sounds pretty good to me for a name. If you want to negotiate with leverage against Amazon, you need to actually have the leverage. Why is collective bargaining so weak in this industry?

tablespoon 5y ago
> Why is collective bargaining so weak in this industry? I think because small companies, not workers are the actors here. If the companies themselves got together, it might be interpreted as some kind of illegal cartel. However, it's kind of interesting to consider the idea of a union of small companies (that's permitted only because they're too week vis-a-vis their customers/vendors that they can be explioted, akin to most employee/employer relationships). Also, if you quit the business, why would keep participating in an organization that has no more relevance to you?
- bombcar 5y ago
  Cartels are illegal, but industry associations are not. It's a fine line, but it can certainly be walked.
  - gruez 5y ago
    What can an "industry association" do to pressure amazon?
    - toomuchtodo 5y ago
      Lobby to change the laws Amazon uses to exploit labor in this manner. Laws are mutable!
  - alisonkisk 5y ago
    Unions are legal too. No workers, no delivery company.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
kwhitefoot 5y ago
Presumably for the same reasons that collective bargaining is broken in most US industries; lack of trust between employees, unions, companies, government together with the pervasive belief that only individual success matters. Briefly: lack of solidarity.
- deadbunny 5y ago
  American exceptionalism is a helluva drug.
commandlinefan 5y ago
> National Delivery Drivers Union Actually, they're called the teamsters and they've been around since the 1800's.
- smhenderson 5y ago
  The Teamsters represent employees, individuals that is. Not small companies.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
cartoonworld 5y ago
Amazon fronts the startup afiak and controls who gets to start the business. Unionizing this is a tough nut, what you are witnessing is not a usual labor protest--this is a Management protest. The Independent operators are shuttering in protest rather than keep suckling.
- deadbunny 5y ago
  If a company pays your startup costs, they are your only "client", they control how much your staff get paid, when they work, and where they work you do not own a business you are an employee with extra steps. Steps that only benefit Amazon.
  - cartoonworld 5y ago
    I guess you're right. Nice "flywheel", huh?
somethoughts 5y ago
Interesting - it could almost be like the National Association of Realtors. Perhaps similar to the National Association developed MLS and the backend APIs for Redfin and Zillow to access, a National Delivery Drivers Association could develop some sort of backend/API for facilitating delivery driver transactions for its members.
- alisonkisk 5y ago
  NAR and the regional MLSes are different organizations.
reaperducer 5y ago
“National Delivery Drivers Union” sounds pretty good to me for a name. This already exists. It's called The Teamsters, and was formed over a hundred years ago by people fighting many of the same problems that modern "gig" delivery drivers face today. But because companies like Amazon and Uber pretend they're strictly technology companies, people don't put the two ideas together. (A "teamster" is someone who drives a team of horses. Think "stagecoaches" and "goods wagons.")

cartoonworld 5y ago

I have direct experience interacting with the Amazon delivery partner fleet operations. I don't disagree, I would like to add a few details to the discussion. There's one important nuance missing in all this and that is that the Fleet contractors, those who own and operate the ProMaster and MB step-vans, they are "independent operators" who are sole suppliers, totally beholden to Amazon. I suspect it is extremely limited to what extent they can leverage any power against amazon, aside from of course striking the means of production, likely forfeiting their work. The arrangement makes these events, to my mind, look like a much bigger sacrifice than it would in a normal market. I mean, just like you said, they up and closed shop rather than keep milking this cow! Maybe it's a bit sour. From what I can gather, the fleets are assigned routes and duties, and are prohibited from using their capital (The blue Amazon fleet vans) for other business prospects, obviously. This makes sense because it says AMAZON on the Van, and the Drivers wear Amazon uniforms. But these are ostensibly independent small businesses. Amazon, I believe, does front the capital expenditure for the vehicle acquisition, and they also require the maintenance to be accomplished on schedule or they levy a fine. The Operators take all the busines and insurance and training and health risks, and I'll bet there is no stipend for "PTSD from 5 more unreportable near miss accidents today." I worry that there is nobody with this kind of fleet logistics experience overseeing these operations. When Amazon decides to re-organize routes, the truck operators may find they are operating at a now reduced revenue stream, with no alternative but to acquiesce. Their fixed expenditures don't change too much, and while they still need to maintain the fleet and make choices about that, their payroll, etc with the added uncertainty of whether or not Amazon is gonna throw them a bone, I have witness that they are cutting corners. They can't liquidate the vehicles, because they are now drastically devalued from normal depreciation, Amazon branded (probably bonded somehow) and these things are pretty banged up. Also, I digress--the ProMasters kind of suck, but they do seem to keep cranking for now. It may be that perhaps those operators who cannot adjust to the required efficiency in operations should go under, forfeiting their start-up capital, but Amazon deigns the start-up worthy or not, and bequeaths the start up cash to these guys and gals. Amazon can leverage their incredible reputation, stock value, and cold-hard liquid cash to get the best deal on credit in a market where the interest rate is Zero. I don't know what the operators pay--but becha it ain't zero. I feel uncommonly conflicted about this arrangement.

stickfigure 5y ago

The thing that will change is that companies considering this kind of work will become aware of the risks. Through articles like this. The answer may simply be spreading the word.

alisonkisk 5y ago

Businesses can die. They aren't people. People can find other work. If suckers are happy, they aren't suckers. Of they aren't happy, they should refuse the job. Amazon can pay for what they need or shut down.