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It's all about education. We just got lucky that we picked IT when we were young. My wife always laughs at me when I refuse to take a job, because "it only pay

by rorrr 15y ago

It's all about education. We just got lucky that we picked IT when we were young. My wife always laughs at me when I refuse to take a job, because "it only pays $60 per hour". Her friends and her don't have any high tech education, and $20-30/hr is their ceiling, most of them making less, and at the same time the jobs they do seem so much more boring than creating websites or building apps. We are truly lucky, guys. Enjoy the ride it while it lasts.

orangecat 15y ago
Indeed. I occasionally wonder what I'd be doing if I had been born a hundred years ago. I figure at best a stockbroker, more likely an accountant doing lots of manual arithmetic.
- protomyth 15y ago
  I get the feeling a good chunk of programmers would have tried their hand at early electrical / mechanical engineering. Planes and cars were in their infant stage. Computing-Tabulating-Recording Company (IBM in 1924) would have been interesting. // Some in the IT field would have been selling snake oil, because they do it today.
- ams6110 15y ago
  I think I would be a blacksmith or carpenter. I think building things is the underlying common factor in things that I like to do.
  - lgeek 15y ago
    This. As a kid, before getting into computers I built model ships (from scratch, ie. from plywood), played with Lego, fooled around with electronics and generally tinkered a lot. I find that similar to programming: designing and improving a project in iterations, understanding how things work by analyzing their internals, remembering processes that work, etc. So I guess that 100 years ago I would have been either into mechanical or electrical engineering or some other more traditional skilled work like carpentry.
- commanda 15y ago
  I'd most likely be a homemaker because that was all that was available to most women 100 years ago. I often count myself lucky that I was born in an age when women can become programmers.
  - randomdata 15y ago
    As a man, I count myself lucky that I was born in an age when a man can become a programmer. In the early days of the industry, programming was relegated to a "woman's job". I think it goes to show just how ridiculous gender biases are. As for what I would be doing, likely a farmer, as that is a job I still do today. Though I'm not sure I would want to give up some of my modern conveniences.
emmett 15y ago
Programming isn't that hard - why don't any of them want to join us? You could become a passable programmer in 3 years and there's no school admittance board you have to impress with test scores!
- rorrr 15y ago
  To be a good programmer is hard. It requires knowledge of a lot of areas - math, logic, algorithms, particular languages, operating system, networks, databases, particular technologies. Just think of what it really takes to create even a simple dynamic website.
  - mattdeboard 15y ago
    I think to be a good/great programmer is hard. But to be a good-enough programmer to make a well-above-average living isn't that tough.
    - recampbell 15y ago
      Exactly. Even below average programmers can find a job and feed their families.
  - ams6110 15y ago
    I can honestly say that I hardly ever really use math in the programming I do. The rest I agree with. EDIT: To clarify, I hardly ever use math at the level I was required to study in my comp. sci. degree curriculum. Of course I use basic arithmetic calculations often enough.
    - Roboprog 15y ago
      Yes and no. Do we not use many of the concepts? * boolean algebra / simplification of terms? * vectors, matrices, tensors (er, strings, arrays, objects) * functions? functions of functions? * set theory? * graph theory? * "closure" of operations (e.g. - what are the limits / bounds of this operation / function? Can I encode every character / code-point in this output representation? -- no? prepare to get hacked, then)
protomyth 15y ago
I don't think it is education per se, but having a job that people are unwilling or unable to put at the other end of the world. I have friends that have a high school education, but have skills that command $50 - $80/hr. They are in vocational jobs working the ND oil fields. Automation is nowhere near good enough to replace them, and at -20F when a pipe needs repair you need good, skilled people now. I guess depending on how broad your definition is, then it my scenario supports your assertion. All vocational people have a training period (modern version of an apprenticeship). I'm not sure a lot of IT is actually that safe. Companies have a lot easier time outsourcing IT to another country then welders. Silicon Valley has inertia and good laws to foster innovation and startups, but others can change their laws and unfunded liabilities of the state government might not allow for stable conditions long term. SF's attempt at taxing might not be an anomaly but a trend.
- rorrr 15y ago
  Would you rather work in an oil field in -20F or creating a website in an office while sipping your morning coffee?
  - protomyth 15y ago
    For myself, I pick the website. For some of my friends, my job would be a death sentence and they would pick the oil field.
  - tdfx 15y ago
    Depends whether you ask on a Monday or Friday.
Homunculiheaded 15y ago
I learned programming a little later in life and then got into professional software development. I would say the huge thing that makes programming (not IT in general) relatively lucrative is not about education but about skill. Good programmers are hard to find and therefore expensive because they have put a lot of time into developing their craft. If you look around at other fields, having a specific skill that requires practice and time to develop almost always pays off (especially if the skill is a practical one). Highly skilled carpenters, electricians, and plumbers make salaries very similar to good programmers. And at the more extreme end most of the highest paid people in the medical world are surgeons, who are also valued for a highly practiced skill. If you have a practiced skill that takes years to develop you are, in most cases, valuable because this is a rare thing. Truth be told very, very few people have the patience and enthusiasm to learn a skill well, so it's almost always valuable when someone does.
- WalterBright 15y ago
  Around here a major project had to be shut down simply because the contractor could not find enough welders to do the work.
  - marshray 15y ago
    No, the contractor just didn't want to pay them by the market-determined rate. If he were offering the right money, welders would come out of the woodwork. They would leave other jobs or relocate.
- ams6110 15y ago
  ABSOLUTELY. It's not about education as commonly taken to mean "college degree." It's about having devoted the effort to develop a skill to the point where you can practice it with high competency.
notJim 15y ago
This is exactly how I feel. I can't really take a lot of credit for thinking practically or rationally when I chose my profession. Just like everyone who studied history, philosophy or nothing at all, I am doing the thing that appealed to me most. Of course, not everyone is like me, but in talking to other programmers whom I respect, the vast majority are doing this because it's their passion. The fact that it happens to align with a huge economic need, and that it's an amazing profession from every possible vantage-- that's just pure luck and historical happenstance. Of course there are others who did go into programming for purely practical reasons. I had a colleague once whom I regarded as kind of a mediocre and passionless programmer. He was a cool guy though, and we got to talking one time. I started asking him about programming stuff and he stopped me. He said, "Man, I do this because it pays the bills and provides a nice home for my family. I'm a painter, not a programmer." To be honest, I had a huge amount of respect for that guy after that.

by rorrr 15y ago

orangecat 15y ago

Indeed. I occasionally wonder what I'd be doing if I had been born a hundred years ago. I figure at best a stockbroker, more likely an accountant doing lots of manual arithmetic.

protomyth 15y ago
I get the feeling a good chunk of programmers would have tried their hand at early electrical / mechanical engineering. Planes and cars were in their infant stage. Computing-Tabulating-Recording Company (IBM in 1924) would have been interesting. // Some in the IT field would have been selling snake oil, because they do it today.
ams6110 15y ago
I think I would be a blacksmith or carpenter. I think building things is the underlying common factor in things that I like to do.
- lgeek 15y ago
  This. As a kid, before getting into computers I built model ships (from scratch, ie. from plywood), played with Lego, fooled around with electronics and generally tinkered a lot. I find that similar to programming: designing and improving a project in iterations, understanding how things work by analyzing their internals, remembering processes that work, etc. So I guess that 100 years ago I would have been either into mechanical or electrical engineering or some other more traditional skilled work like carpentry.
commanda 15y ago
I'd most likely be a homemaker because that was all that was available to most women 100 years ago. I often count myself lucky that I was born in an age when women can become programmers.
- randomdata 15y ago
  As a man, I count myself lucky that I was born in an age when a man can become a programmer. In the early days of the industry, programming was relegated to a "woman's job". I think it goes to show just how ridiculous gender biases are. As for what I would be doing, likely a farmer, as that is a job I still do today. Though I'm not sure I would want to give up some of my modern conveniences.

emmett 15y ago

Programming isn't that hard - why don't any of them want to join us? You could become a passable programmer in 3 years and there's no school admittance board you have to impress with test scores!

rorrr 15y ago
To be a good programmer is hard. It requires knowledge of a lot of areas - math, logic, algorithms, particular languages, operating system, networks, databases, particular technologies. Just think of what it really takes to create even a simple dynamic website.
- mattdeboard 15y ago
  I think to be a good/great programmer is hard. But to be a good-enough programmer to make a well-above-average living isn't that tough.
  - recampbell 15y ago
    Exactly. Even below average programmers can find a job and feed their families.
- ams6110 15y ago
  I can honestly say that I hardly ever really use math in the programming I do. The rest I agree with. EDIT: To clarify, I hardly ever use math at the level I was required to study in my comp. sci. degree curriculum. Of course I use basic arithmetic calculations often enough.
  - Roboprog 15y ago
    Yes and no. Do we not use many of the concepts? * boolean algebra / simplification of terms? * vectors, matrices, tensors (er, strings, arrays, objects) * functions? functions of functions? * set theory? * graph theory? * "closure" of operations (e.g. - what are the limits / bounds of this operation / function? Can I encode every character / code-point in this output representation? -- no? prepare to get hacked, then)

protomyth 15y ago

I don't think it is education per se, but having a job that people are unwilling or unable to put at the other end of the world. I have friends that have a high school education, but have skills that command $50 - $80/hr. They are in vocational jobs working the ND oil fields. Automation is nowhere near good enough to replace them, and at -20F when a pipe needs repair you need good, skilled people now. I guess depending on how broad your definition is, then it my scenario supports your assertion. All vocational people have a training period (modern version of an apprenticeship). I'm not sure a lot of IT is actually that safe. Companies have a lot easier time outsourcing IT to another country then welders. Silicon Valley has inertia and good laws to foster innovation and startups, but others can change their laws and unfunded liabilities of the state government might not allow for stable conditions long term. SF's attempt at taxing might not be an anomaly but a trend.

rorrr 15y ago
Would you rather work in an oil field in -20F or creating a website in an office while sipping your morning coffee?
- protomyth 15y ago
  For myself, I pick the website. For some of my friends, my job would be a death sentence and they would pick the oil field.
- tdfx 15y ago
  Depends whether you ask on a Monday or Friday.

Homunculiheaded 15y ago

I learned programming a little later in life and then got into professional software development. I would say the huge thing that makes programming (not IT in general) relatively lucrative is not about education but about skill. Good programmers are hard to find and therefore expensive because they have put a lot of time into developing their craft. If you look around at other fields, having a specific skill that requires practice and time to develop almost always pays off (especially if the skill is a practical one). Highly skilled carpenters, electricians, and plumbers make salaries very similar to good programmers. And at the more extreme end most of the highest paid people in the medical world are surgeons, who are also valued for a highly practiced skill. If you have a practiced skill that takes years to develop you are, in most cases, valuable because this is a rare thing. Truth be told very, very few people have the patience and enthusiasm to learn a skill well, so it's almost always valuable when someone does.

WalterBright 15y ago
Around here a major project had to be shut down simply because the contractor could not find enough welders to do the work.
- marshray 15y ago
  No, the contractor just didn't want to pay them by the market-determined rate. If he were offering the right money, welders would come out of the woodwork. They would leave other jobs or relocate.
ams6110 15y ago
ABSOLUTELY. It's not about education as commonly taken to mean "college degree." It's about having devoted the effort to develop a skill to the point where you can practice it with high competency.

notJim 15y ago

This is exactly how I feel. I can't really take a lot of credit for thinking practically or rationally when I chose my profession. Just like everyone who studied history, philosophy or nothing at all, I am doing the thing that appealed to me most. Of course, not everyone is like me, but in talking to other programmers whom I respect, the vast majority are doing this because it's their passion. The fact that it happens to align with a huge economic need, and that it's an amazing profession from every possible vantage-- that's just pure luck and historical happenstance. Of course there are others who did go into programming for purely practical reasons. I had a colleague once whom I regarded as kind of a mediocre and passionless programmer. He was a cool guy though, and we got to talking one time. I started asking him about programming stuff and he stopped me. He said, "Man, I do this because it pays the bills and provides a nice home for my family. I'm a painter, not a programmer." To be honest, I had a huge amount of respect for that guy after that.