4 ms·

I'm not sure you have to keep pointing to the boogie man of soviet infiltrators to explain power hungry bureaucrats. Those have existed in literally every soci

I'm not sure you have to keep pointing to the boogie man of soviet infiltrators to explain power hungry bureaucrats. Those have existed in literally every society since at least the early bronze age.

46756e 5y ago
Agreed, I think better explanation is much more simple: Those that will do anything for power have an advantage over others, ergo people at high level positions are disproportionately those types of people.
- phkahler 5y ago
  >> Those that will do anything for power have an advantage over others, ergo people at high level positions are disproportionately those types of people. One thought is that we could try to fix that problem with some type of screening, but that would be another system to game or corrupt. Also, those kind of people (high ambition and drive) can be really useful in those positions so long as they don't go off the rails.
  - m12k 5y ago
    I like the solution from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Elect some random person as president of the galaxy, but don't tell him about it. Just have conversations with him to find out what he thinks about things, but don't let him know that you actually run the galaxy based on these conversations. If power corrupts, make it impossible to seek power, and don't let the person that wields it know that they have it.
    - justinclift 5y ago
      That could go seriously badly if the random person happened to have extreme views. :/
      - 46756e 5y ago
        Also it just moves the problem one person down the line. So the new most powerful position is the person that knows who runs the galaxy and talks to her/him. That person can make up things or sway the ruler. If you have many people, you now just have an oligarchy.
        bluejekyll 5y ago
        This is pretty much how the Shogunate in Japan worked. Once a single war lord controls the “security” of the Emperor, they then wield power and justify all of there actions based on sole access to the Emperor.
        elliekelly 5y ago
        This reminds me of the “Goldilocks” strategy the DoD supposedly uses when presenting a President with a menu of military options: 1. Very extreme militaristic response that will surely cause many deaths. Clearly unacceptable. 2. Very weak bordering on non-existent response. Clearly unacceptable. 3. What pentagon has already decided to do. Clearly the “only” viable option.
    - pram 5y ago
      This isn’t correct iirc. Zaphod definitely knew he was president. The government didn’t consult him about anything, he was just a distraction.
      - m12k 5y ago
        I wasn't talking about Zaphod. https://hitchhikers.fandom.com/wiki/Ruler_of_the_Universe https://hitchhikers.fandom.com/wiki/Ruler_of_the_Universe
- jl2718 5y ago
  https://twitter.com/officialmcafee/status/1273301164419952640 https://twitter.com/officialmcafee/status/127330116441995264...
pessimizer 5y ago
It's Russians all the way down, trying to impurify our precious bodily fluids.
baybal2 5y ago
> I'm not sure you have to keep pointing to the boogie man of soviet infiltrators to explain power hungry bureaucrats. Those have existed in literally every society since at least the early bronze age. No, I'd say power hunger is one thing, but what you face now is unique to this poisonous "Soviet Culture." A very special, aggressive brand of social nihilism at the apex of civil society, characteristic of one party/social class governments. Putin put his own spin on the timeless demoralisation tactic (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bX3EZCVj2XA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bX3EZCVj2XA ,) an even more aggressive targeting of both the new elites, and the establishment (see Biden Jr. adventures with in Ukraine.) Or plainly speaking playing both sides.
- monocasa 5y ago
  Putin's tactics are postmodern, a philosophy that at it's core (despite right wing propaganda around the terms) is intrinsically anti Marxist. Seeing the ghosts of soviets in every dark corner is something that these very elites we're talking about use to control you and your perceptions of reality.
  - baybal2 5y ago
    > Putin's tactics are postmodern, a philosophy that at it's core (despite right wing propaganda around the terms) is intrinsically anti Marxist. This is what they want the West to believe. They want you to lower your guard, they want you to start working with them, and put thoughts like "hey, maybe those guys are a lesser evil than communists" into your head. They rely on people who they call "useful idiots" (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot) in communist lingo to perpetuate, and spread such ideas to the West.
    - monocasa 5y ago
      > This is what they want the West to believe. They want you to lower your guard, they want you to start working with them, and put thoughts like "hey, maybe those guys are a lesser evil than communists" into your head. They're doing a terrible job then. They've somehow created an even worse society for Russians as far as I can tell. > They rely on people who they call "useful idiots" (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot) in communist lingo to perpetuate, and spread such ideas to the West. You realize that your citation of Useful Idiot literally points out that there's no record of the term actually being used by the soviets, but instead appears to have been first used by the New York Times?
evv555 5y ago
True but what's different is the groupthink and "ends justify the means" mentality. There's a qualitative difference
- monocasa 5y ago
  No, those features have also been intrinsic to bureaucrat classes as a whole since the dawn of organized society. Bueracrats are sort of like neurons in the organism of society. They don't have a lot individual intrisic power, but gain power by moving to common (albeit very complex) beat, and commanding the other types of cells according to the machinations of that emergent beat. That manifests as both groupthink as they attempt to play their part in the neural system as a whole, and "ends justify the means" mentality as they look at the rest of us as other specialized cells that exist to serve the societal organism as a whole. I guarantee you that on average a 15th century BCE Egyptian bureaucrat trended the same way, as it's core to the space.
  - evv555 5y ago
    Devil is in the details and I also guarantee you there are important differences between how western bureaucrats operate and how they operate in USSR/elsewhere despite any commonalities that can be drawn.
    - monocasa 5y ago
      I've never said there weren't differences. Only that the specific aspects being pointed out in this thread as signs of continuing soviet corruption of American values are actually aspects of bureaucracy as a whole older than recorded history.
      - evv555 5y ago
        There's a difference between operating within the constructs of power and having a reductionist worldview of power. The 2nd one is more like a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I'm not sure you have to keep pointing to the boogie man of soviet infiltrators to explain power hungry bureaucrats. Those have existed in literally every society since at least the early bronze age.

46756e 5y ago

Agreed, I think better explanation is much more simple: Those that will do anything for power have an advantage over others, ergo people at high level positions are disproportionately those types of people.

phkahler 5y ago
>> Those that will do anything for power have an advantage over others, ergo people at high level positions are disproportionately those types of people. One thought is that we could try to fix that problem with some type of screening, but that would be another system to game or corrupt. Also, those kind of people (high ambition and drive) can be really useful in those positions so long as they don't go off the rails.
- m12k 5y ago
  I like the solution from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Elect some random person as president of the galaxy, but don't tell him about it. Just have conversations with him to find out what he thinks about things, but don't let him know that you actually run the galaxy based on these conversations. If power corrupts, make it impossible to seek power, and don't let the person that wields it know that they have it.
  - justinclift 5y ago
    That could go seriously badly if the random person happened to have extreme views. :/
    - 46756e 5y ago
      Also it just moves the problem one person down the line. So the new most powerful position is the person that knows who runs the galaxy and talks to her/him. That person can make up things or sway the ruler. If you have many people, you now just have an oligarchy.
      - bluejekyll 5y ago
        This is pretty much how the Shogunate in Japan worked. Once a single war lord controls the “security” of the Emperor, they then wield power and justify all of there actions based on sole access to the Emperor.
      - elliekelly 5y ago
        This reminds me of the “Goldilocks” strategy the DoD supposedly uses when presenting a President with a menu of military options: 1. Very extreme militaristic response that will surely cause many deaths. Clearly unacceptable. 2. Very weak bordering on non-existent response. Clearly unacceptable. 3. What pentagon has already decided to do. Clearly the “only” viable option.
  - pram 5y ago
    This isn’t correct iirc. Zaphod definitely knew he was president. The government didn’t consult him about anything, he was just a distraction.
    - m12k 5y ago
      I wasn't talking about Zaphod. https://hitchhikers.fandom.com/wiki/Ruler_of_the_Universe https://hitchhikers.fandom.com/wiki/Ruler_of_the_Universe
jl2718 5y ago
https://twitter.com/officialmcafee/status/1273301164419952640 https://twitter.com/officialmcafee/status/127330116441995264...

pessimizer 5y ago

It's Russians all the way down, trying to impurify our precious bodily fluids.

baybal2 5y ago

> I'm not sure you have to keep pointing to the boogie man of soviet infiltrators to explain power hungry bureaucrats. Those have existed in literally every society since at least the early bronze age. No, I'd say power hunger is one thing, but what you face now is unique to this poisonous "Soviet Culture." A very special, aggressive brand of social nihilism at the apex of civil society, characteristic of one party/social class governments. Putin put his own spin on the timeless demoralisation tactic (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bX3EZCVj2XA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bX3EZCVj2XA ,) an even more aggressive targeting of both the new elites, and the establishment (see Biden Jr. adventures with in Ukraine.) Or plainly speaking playing both sides.

monocasa 5y ago
Putin's tactics are postmodern, a philosophy that at it's core (despite right wing propaganda around the terms) is intrinsically anti Marxist. Seeing the ghosts of soviets in every dark corner is something that these very elites we're talking about use to control you and your perceptions of reality.
- baybal2 5y ago
  > Putin's tactics are postmodern, a philosophy that at it's core (despite right wing propaganda around the terms) is intrinsically anti Marxist. This is what they want the West to believe. They want you to lower your guard, they want you to start working with them, and put thoughts like "hey, maybe those guys are a lesser evil than communists" into your head. They rely on people who they call "useful idiots" (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot) in communist lingo to perpetuate, and spread such ideas to the West.
  - monocasa 5y ago
    > This is what they want the West to believe. They want you to lower your guard, they want you to start working with them, and put thoughts like "hey, maybe those guys are a lesser evil than communists" into your head. They're doing a terrible job then. They've somehow created an even worse society for Russians as far as I can tell. > They rely on people who they call "useful idiots" (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot) in communist lingo to perpetuate, and spread such ideas to the West. You realize that your citation of Useful Idiot literally points out that there's no record of the term actually being used by the soviets, but instead appears to have been first used by the New York Times?

evv555 5y ago

True but what's different is the groupthink and "ends justify the means" mentality. There's a qualitative difference

monocasa 5y ago
No, those features have also been intrinsic to bureaucrat classes as a whole since the dawn of organized society. Bueracrats are sort of like neurons in the organism of society. They don't have a lot individual intrisic power, but gain power by moving to common (albeit very complex) beat, and commanding the other types of cells according to the machinations of that emergent beat. That manifests as both groupthink as they attempt to play their part in the neural system as a whole, and "ends justify the means" mentality as they look at the rest of us as other specialized cells that exist to serve the societal organism as a whole. I guarantee you that on average a 15th century BCE Egyptian bureaucrat trended the same way, as it's core to the space.
- evv555 5y ago
  Devil is in the details and I also guarantee you there are important differences between how western bureaucrats operate and how they operate in USSR/elsewhere despite any commonalities that can be drawn.
  - monocasa 5y ago
    I've never said there weren't differences. Only that the specific aspects being pointed out in this thread as signs of continuing soviet corruption of American values are actually aspects of bureaucracy as a whole older than recorded history.
    - evv555 5y ago
      There's a difference between operating within the constructs of power and having a reductionist worldview of power. The 2nd one is more like a self-fulfilling prophecy.