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Learning German for the better part of the last two years, I agree with the thought of your comment. The only way I could wrap my head around the notorious Germ
by skytreader 5y ago
Learning German for the better part of the last two years, I agree with the thought of your comment. The only way I could wrap my head around the notorious German genders is by divorcing myself of the English concept that gender in language depends completely on the object referred to. Rather, I had to see gender as an arbitrary grammatical category; so just get used to it!
However, I (an armchair linguist, I should note) am also a big adherent to the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis: your language affects your world view. And in terms of gender, there's at least research[1] that shows linguistic gender affects our perception of things. Of course, as with all research, it's open to critique, but I don't have the training for evaluating research in this field. Maybe someone else better equipped could chime in.
Interesting quotes:
> In one study, we asked German and Spanish speakers to describe objects having opposite gender assignment in those two languages. The descriptions they gave differed in a way predicted by grammatical gender. For example, when asked to describe a “key” — a word that is masculine in German and feminine in Spanish — the German speakers were more likely to use words like “hard,” “heavy,” “jagged,” “metal,” “serrated,” and “useful,” whereas Spanish speakers were more likely to say “golden,” “intricate,” “little,” “lovely,” “shiny,” and “tiny.” ... This was true even though all testing was done in English, a language without grammatical gender.
> Look at some famous examples of personification in art — the ways in which abstract entities such as death, sin, victory, or time are given human form. How does an artist decide whether death, say, or time should be painted as a man or a woman? It turns out that in 85 percent of such personifications, whether a male or female figure is chosen is predicted by the grammatical gender of the word in the artist's native language.
The second quote struck me in particular because when I first came across this, I just had a vacation in Paris where I visited the Pantheon. In one of the Pantheon's pillars is a depiction of Death (French: La Mort, feminine) and it struck me as very curious that in this depiction, Death is female. The only other work I knew of to do that was Neil Gaiman's Sandman.
(This is already long enough, but going back to the topic of "Latinx" terms...I don't intend my point above as an endorsement of this practice. In fact I find them quite virtue signalling. I have more thoughts on this but I think the majority of gender (and racial) activism is distracted on bike shedding issues such as using this "x-form". But enough said for now.)
[1] https://www.edge.org/conversation/lera_boroditsky-how-does-our-language-shape-the-way-we-think https://www.edge.org/conversation/lera_boroditsky-how-does-o...
- mastazi 5y ago> Rather, I had to see gender as an arbitrary grammatical category; so just get used to it! Exactly > Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis: your language affects your world view I also agree on this. The study you mentioned about German and Spanish speakers is fascinating. However I see this under a slightly different light: I suspect that speaking a language where all nouns are gendered, your gender-related biases might end up being de-emphasised over time[1]. I would love to read research papers about this topic. [1] see my other comments here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27710620 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27710620 and here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27710812 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27710812 where I attempt to explain what I mean by that
- throw_m239339 5y ago> your language affects your world view. It absolutely does. That's why learning new languages can heavily widen one's perspective. That's also why people who can influence word definitions, especially legal ones, are the most influent and powerful people on earth. Talking about French, the English word "mortgage" always sounded extremely sinister from a French perspective, given its linguistic implications.
- mchaver 5y ago> your language affects your world view As a linguist, my personal opinion is that it tinges your world view, but does not have a large influence on it. I only adhere to a very light interpretation of Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis. tldr: culture is a much stronger influence on world view, it also strongly influences language. A simple, but clear example is rhyme. By having words that rhyme in your language, you are more likely to pair them together in a song or a poem, like love and dove, but these words don't rhyme in Chinese so you a Chinese speaker is less likely to pair them when rhyme is needed. It also affects word play. A counter argument would be imperfect rhyme, the culture or desired effect forces a rhyme on words. The speaker finds a why to manipulate the language for their needs. A stronger argument argument against Sapir-Whorf is that there are native speakers of a language that have very different cultures like native speaker of American English and native speakers of Indian English. They both speak English, but have very different world views, and change the language to suit their communication needs. The opposite can be true as well, speakers of different languages, but related cultures can shape their languages in similar ways. For example, many Singaporeans are native or high level English speakers and the language has evolved patterns and communication styles found in Chinese languages.