5 ms·

>Black people are currently less educated as a result of systemic racism than their Asain and white counterparts. but why? end exams are standarized and in my

>Black people are currently less educated as a result of systemic racism than their Asain and white counterparts. but why? end exams are standarized and in my opinion fair

vmception 5y ago
> end exams are standarized and in my opinion fair there is actually a lot of ongoing discussion about that and there is no resolved consensus on your opinion
- tester756 5y ago
  and what arguments are that this process is not fair? current approach challenges pure intellectual output, any other way implies bias which current system strongly avoids
  - jedberg 5y ago
    If a standardized test said "what is the Yiddish word for rag?", is that test fair? It asks everyone the same question after all. But I'd bet you find that Jewish people were passing that test at a higher rate than anyone else. Obviously the biases in actual standardized tests are more subtle, but a lot of the question have an inherent cultural bias and assume some basic cultural knowledge in their test takers.
    - tester756 5y ago
      In my country exams are: basic (mandatory): math, country_lang, other_lang advanced level (your choice): cs, math, physics, biology, chemistry, country_lang, other_lang, history, other... I don't think there's wide room for questions like that.
      - jedberg 5y ago
        > I don't think there's wide room for questions like that. You'd be surprised. There is ample research showing that even the most simple math and reading comprehension questions have cultural biases.
        tester756 5y ago
        Ok, I agree that it is possible that question like that exists (e.g counting cards) but on the other hand they appear on previous years questions as often as other (I think), thus you can easily prepare and learn how to count cards or stuff
        jedberg 5y ago
        That's actually a perfect example. Any problem that involves cards assumes you know what cards are, what the suits are, how many of each there are, etc. That's cultural knowledge not everyone has, and often breaks down by race. So yes, you could learn it, but the kids who grew up playing cards with their family have a distinct advantage on that question.
        tester756 5y ago
        but still, how many questions are like that? on math exams in my country (basic+advanced) I noticed only 1 question like that - those cards System is not perfect, but do you have any better alternative?
    - motogpjimbo 5y ago
      The biases must be subtle indeed if you are unable to describe one and have to resort instead to an absurd thought experiment.
      - jedberg 5y ago
        Runner is to Marathon as Regatta is to_________________ (You need to be wealthy and coastal to know what a Regatta is) If you have a number system where each place is a power of two greater than the one next to it, and only the digits 1 and 0, how do you represent the number 1033? (This was an actual question I remember from a test, which I aced because I already knew binary but most of classmates were dumbfounded by the question) Any question in English to a kid who grew up in a home that didn't speak English. There are lots of studies you can Google with more examples.
        tester756 5y ago
        >Any question in English to a kid who grew up in a home that didn't speak English. On english exams (here) the question is written in native language
        jedberg 5y ago
        Ok, so I would do poorly then since I don’t speak the native language.
        tester756 5y ago
        What do you meaan? e.g Polish students in Poland take english exams and the "what you have to do" part is written in Polish, but the task itself challenges english skills
        jedberg 5y ago
        For the math part, are the instructions in Polish or English? As a native English speaker, I would have trouble doing math if the instructions and word problems were in Polish, even if Polish were my second language. Usually standardized tests are in one language regardless of if you're a native speaker or not, putting immigrants at a disadvantage.
  - blindmute 5y ago
    The arguments are rationalized after the fact. Black people do worse on the exams, thus the exams must be unfair. The rest of the exercise is trying desperately to twist the data to support this, or when that fails, just say "systemic racism" and wave your hands vaguely.

>Black people are currently less educated as a result of systemic racism than their Asain and white counterparts. but why? end exams are standarized and in my opinion fair

vmception 5y ago

> end exams are standarized and in my opinion fair there is actually a lot of ongoing discussion about that and there is no resolved consensus on your opinion

tester756 5y ago
and what arguments are that this process is not fair? current approach challenges pure intellectual output, any other way implies bias which current system strongly avoids
- jedberg 5y ago
  If a standardized test said "what is the Yiddish word for rag?", is that test fair? It asks everyone the same question after all. But I'd bet you find that Jewish people were passing that test at a higher rate than anyone else. Obviously the biases in actual standardized tests are more subtle, but a lot of the question have an inherent cultural bias and assume some basic cultural knowledge in their test takers.
  - tester756 5y ago
    In my country exams are: basic (mandatory): math, country_lang, other_lang advanced level (your choice): cs, math, physics, biology, chemistry, country_lang, other_lang, history, other... I don't think there's wide room for questions like that.
    - jedberg 5y ago
      > I don't think there's wide room for questions like that. You'd be surprised. There is ample research showing that even the most simple math and reading comprehension questions have cultural biases.
      - tester756 5y ago
        Ok, I agree that it is possible that question like that exists (e.g counting cards) but on the other hand they appear on previous years questions as often as other (I think), thus you can easily prepare and learn how to count cards or stuff
        jedberg 5y ago
        That's actually a perfect example. Any problem that involves cards assumes you know what cards are, what the suits are, how many of each there are, etc. That's cultural knowledge not everyone has, and often breaks down by race. So yes, you could learn it, but the kids who grew up playing cards with their family have a distinct advantage on that question.
        tester756 5y ago
        but still, how many questions are like that? on math exams in my country (basic+advanced) I noticed only 1 question like that - those cards System is not perfect, but do you have any better alternative?
  - motogpjimbo 5y ago
    The biases must be subtle indeed if you are unable to describe one and have to resort instead to an absurd thought experiment.
    - jedberg 5y ago
      Runner is to Marathon as Regatta is to_________________ (You need to be wealthy and coastal to know what a Regatta is) If you have a number system where each place is a power of two greater than the one next to it, and only the digits 1 and 0, how do you represent the number 1033? (This was an actual question I remember from a test, which I aced because I already knew binary but most of classmates were dumbfounded by the question) Any question in English to a kid who grew up in a home that didn't speak English. There are lots of studies you can Google with more examples.
      - tester756 5y ago
        >Any question in English to a kid who grew up in a home that didn't speak English. On english exams (here) the question is written in native language
        jedberg 5y ago
        Ok, so I would do poorly then since I don’t speak the native language.
        tester756 5y ago
        What do you meaan? e.g Polish students in Poland take english exams and the "what you have to do" part is written in Polish, but the task itself challenges english skills
        jedberg 5y ago
        For the math part, are the instructions in Polish or English? As a native English speaker, I would have trouble doing math if the instructions and word problems were in Polish, even if Polish were my second language. Usually standardized tests are in one language regardless of if you're a native speaker or not, putting immigrants at a disadvantage.
- blindmute 5y ago
  The arguments are rationalized after the fact. Black people do worse on the exams, thus the exams must be unfair. The rest of the exercise is trying desperately to twist the data to support this, or when that fails, just say "systemic racism" and wave your hands vaguely.