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There is something amiss in calling the US a nation. Maybe it's the absence of historical epics, the lack of a uniting identity thru the ages, the lack of mythi

There is something amiss in calling the US a nation. Maybe it's the absence of historical epics, the lack of a uniting identity thru the ages, the lack of mythical gods. Comparing against nations like India and China, USA seems to be without a soul.

dkdbejwi383 5y ago
Probably because the modern, colonial boundaries of the USA, Canada, Mexico, etc, bear no relation to the historical national boundaries of the Native American peoples. Plus, the modern concepts of nation-states with fixed borders don't map neatly onto Native American traditions.
wizwit999 5y ago
India isn't much a nation either. Its a good example of the post colonial federalized union of nations mentioned in the article.
- Mordisquitos 5y ago
  While I agree that India is not a nation in the sense of the article, India had already been under varying levels of political union prior to colonisation, unless we consider the Mamluks, Mughals, etc. as colonisers in the broadest sense. In fact, I've often heard the truism that the post-colonial effect on the Indian subcontinent was not so much characterised by the artificial federalisation of nations, but rather their artificial separation—in India on the one side, and East and West Pakistan on the other.
- yyyk 5y ago
  Federalism doesn't contradict being a nation-state, India is clearly moving to a more nation-like model under the BJP.
zhdc1 5y ago
Reminder that almost a quarter of Chinese citizens cannot speak Mandarin, and the percentage that can speak it fluently is apparently far smaller. I haven't been able to find a good English source for the percentage of Indians who are fluent in Hindi, but it looks like it's around 53-70%. Source: - http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-09/08/c_136594961.htm http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-09/08/c_136594961.htm - https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=14771 https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=14771 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multilingualism_in_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multilingualism_in_India Edit: I mention this because the Oxford definition of a nation is "a country considered as a group of people with the same language, culture, and history, who live in a particular area under one government" I think this applies to the United States. I don't know how well it applies to India or China, or even to most European states before the 20th century.
- DiogenesKynikos 5y ago
  Mandarin is not the only Chinese language. It's the standard dialect, but there are a range of other dialects and languages spoken in the country that derive from Old Chinese, and which share a significant cultural heritage. This gets even murkier, because Chinese is not written phonetically, so even people who do not speak a common language or dialect can still communicate using the common writing system. All this is to say that Chinese identity is not as closely bound to speaking Mandarin as one might think.
asteroidbelt 5y ago
US citizens might not see how uniform the US is. When I first came to the US, I was amazed how different it from Europe, they look similar on TV, but when looking at it with your own eyes, thousands of tiny details reveal it. And later, when I traveled in different US cities in several US states on both coasts, I was amazed, how different part of the US are like each other. It might sound funny, the but same style of light switches in places thousands of miles apart struck me. Let alone, similar street signs, similar pavement styles, similar police cars, similar fire trucks, star-spangled flags everywhere. The US has cultural codes, the identity. I would even say that the difference for example between the US and the UK is larger than the difference between the UK and France. So, like it or not, but the US is a nation.
- zhdc1 5y ago
  Yep. I've lived in several countries, and from what I've seen, there's more cultural heterogeneity between many EU towns that are 100km or more apart in the same member state than there is across almost all of the US - not including obvious outliers.
  - smeej 5y ago
    I've lived in half a dozen U.S. states and have visited most of the rest, and the exact opposite has stood out to me. The fact that places like Seattle, suburban Los Angeles, rural Maine, most of Nebraska, and Miami are in the same country seems almost absurd. If your experience of the U.S. has been concentrated on cities, I can see how the regions may seem similar, but things that seem absolutely normal in LA (using Uber Eats to order delivery of roasted crickets because you want a snack, for an actual example that happened to me) make a visitor from nearly anywhere other than a few major cities feel like they're on a different planet!
    - zhdc1 5y ago
      > The fact that places like Seattle, suburban Los Angeles, rural Maine, most of Nebraska, and Miami are in the same country seems almost absurd. Why? I can drive an hour away from where I currently work and experience more linguistic diversity (in terms of dialect intelligibility and actual language spoken) than I can in almost any region in the United States. And this is not, in any way, unique to where I live. Drive an hour outside of Taichung, Abu Dhabi, or Bangkok, and compare the differences in how people speak, live, &c. against Atlanta and rural Georgia. The truth is that America is incredibly, incredibly homogeneous.
coldtea 5y ago
USA is people initially coming over to be independent from their home countries and from each other (not to form a nation), and then slowly merging (with some dragged-along without their will, like African-American slaves, and others coming from outside like post-US formation asian, european, etc immigrants) under the flag of freedom, opportunity, etc., in a period where a rising US global role tide lifted all domestic boats. In the meantime a common US culture has formed too, but not one with any deep historical roots, and also one where many parts don't feel that close to now that the good times are not exactly continuing...
muyuu 5y ago
China and India are bad examples. These are deeply multicultural countries, despite the authoritarian centralisation under a Han Mandarin leadership in China. If you said Japan or Hungary then you'd have a point.
DiogenesKynikos 5y ago
The US has the American Revolution. The Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights form the basis of the US' civic religion. American nationalism is based on a set of civic ideals, and that fact allows people who have different religions and ancestry to identify with the country.

dkdbejwi383 5y ago

Probably because the modern, colonial boundaries of the USA, Canada, Mexico, etc, bear no relation to the historical national boundaries of the Native American peoples. Plus, the modern concepts of nation-states with fixed borders don't map neatly onto Native American traditions.

wizwit999 5y ago

India isn't much a nation either. Its a good example of the post colonial federalized union of nations mentioned in the article.

Mordisquitos 5y ago
While I agree that India is not a nation in the sense of the article, India had already been under varying levels of political union prior to colonisation, unless we consider the Mamluks, Mughals, etc. as colonisers in the broadest sense. In fact, I've often heard the truism that the post-colonial effect on the Indian subcontinent was not so much characterised by the artificial federalisation of nations, but rather their artificial separation—in India on the one side, and East and West Pakistan on the other.
yyyk 5y ago
Federalism doesn't contradict being a nation-state, India is clearly moving to a more nation-like model under the BJP.

zhdc1 5y ago

Reminder that almost a quarter of Chinese citizens cannot speak Mandarin, and the percentage that can speak it fluently is apparently far smaller. I haven't been able to find a good English source for the percentage of Indians who are fluent in Hindi, but it looks like it's around 53-70%. Source: - http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-09/08/c_136594961.htm http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-09/08/c_136594961.htm - https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=14771 https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=14771 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multilingualism_in_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multilingualism_in_India Edit: I mention this because the Oxford definition of a nation is "a country considered as a group of people with the same language, culture, and history, who live in a particular area under one government" I think this applies to the United States. I don't know how well it applies to India or China, or even to most European states before the 20th century.

DiogenesKynikos 5y ago
Mandarin is not the only Chinese language. It's the standard dialect, but there are a range of other dialects and languages spoken in the country that derive from Old Chinese, and which share a significant cultural heritage. This gets even murkier, because Chinese is not written phonetically, so even people who do not speak a common language or dialect can still communicate using the common writing system. All this is to say that Chinese identity is not as closely bound to speaking Mandarin as one might think.

asteroidbelt 5y ago

US citizens might not see how uniform the US is. When I first came to the US, I was amazed how different it from Europe, they look similar on TV, but when looking at it with your own eyes, thousands of tiny details reveal it. And later, when I traveled in different US cities in several US states on both coasts, I was amazed, how different part of the US are like each other. It might sound funny, the but same style of light switches in places thousands of miles apart struck me. Let alone, similar street signs, similar pavement styles, similar police cars, similar fire trucks, star-spangled flags everywhere. The US has cultural codes, the identity. I would even say that the difference for example between the US and the UK is larger than the difference between the UK and France. So, like it or not, but the US is a nation.

zhdc1 5y ago
Yep. I've lived in several countries, and from what I've seen, there's more cultural heterogeneity between many EU towns that are 100km or more apart in the same member state than there is across almost all of the US - not including obvious outliers.
- smeej 5y ago
  I've lived in half a dozen U.S. states and have visited most of the rest, and the exact opposite has stood out to me. The fact that places like Seattle, suburban Los Angeles, rural Maine, most of Nebraska, and Miami are in the same country seems almost absurd. If your experience of the U.S. has been concentrated on cities, I can see how the regions may seem similar, but things that seem absolutely normal in LA (using Uber Eats to order delivery of roasted crickets because you want a snack, for an actual example that happened to me) make a visitor from nearly anywhere other than a few major cities feel like they're on a different planet!
  - zhdc1 5y ago
    > The fact that places like Seattle, suburban Los Angeles, rural Maine, most of Nebraska, and Miami are in the same country seems almost absurd. Why? I can drive an hour away from where I currently work and experience more linguistic diversity (in terms of dialect intelligibility and actual language spoken) than I can in almost any region in the United States. And this is not, in any way, unique to where I live. Drive an hour outside of Taichung, Abu Dhabi, or Bangkok, and compare the differences in how people speak, live, &c. against Atlanta and rural Georgia. The truth is that America is incredibly, incredibly homogeneous.

coldtea 5y ago

USA is people initially coming over to be independent from their home countries and from each other (not to form a nation), and then slowly merging (with some dragged-along without their will, like African-American slaves, and others coming from outside like post-US formation asian, european, etc immigrants) under the flag of freedom, opportunity, etc., in a period where a rising US global role tide lifted all domestic boats. In the meantime a common US culture has formed too, but not one with any deep historical roots, and also one where many parts don't feel that close to now that the good times are not exactly continuing...

muyuu 5y ago

China and India are bad examples. These are deeply multicultural countries, despite the authoritarian centralisation under a Han Mandarin leadership in China. If you said Japan or Hungary then you'd have a point.

DiogenesKynikos 5y ago

The US has the American Revolution. The Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights form the basis of the US' civic religion. American nationalism is based on a set of civic ideals, and that fact allows people who have different religions and ancestry to identify with the country.