4 ms·

Yeah a lot of particles come from the road/tyres, so if we want to be rid of all of them I guess switching to EVs isn't really enough (but it's a damn good star

Yeah a lot of particles come from the road/tyres, so if we want to be rid of all of them I guess switching to EVs isn't really enough (but it's a damn good start). Long term(as in multiple decades) we might want to switch maglev railways, as there is no friction to stir particles in the air from that. That would also remove the need for batteries whose production is probably harmful to some degree. Infrastructure costs are gonna be fun though...

DoingIsLearning 5y ago
> I guess switching to EVs isn't really enough For completeness EV apply regenerative braking for a large proportion of use, which is for all practical purposes particle free. Obviously tire wear still applies but brake pad wear is largely reduced So with EV you are getting rid of ICE particulates, CO2, CO, and NO2 (particularly on Diesel engines) and also drastically reducing brake particulate from brake pad wear. And to be fair my intuition is that the health impacts of CO and NO2 is likely far more harmful then tire and brake pad particulates. Having said all of that we would still be better off just having everyone using electric buses or trains within Metro areas at least.
- dcolkitt 5y ago
  My understanding is that most particulate emission isn’t from brake pads, but from asphalt on the road. Regen braking should only have a de minims impact.
RobertoG 5y ago
>>"Yeah a lot of particles come from the road/tyres," It seems some people is working on that too: "The Tyre Collective designed a simple device that collects microplastics as they fly off a car tire. As the group of designers explains it, their device helps on the path toward zero emissions by using electrostatic and airflow around the tire to capture the microplastics and other small particles that are shed over the lifetime of a tire." https://www.ecowatch.com/microplastics-car-tires-james-dyson-award--2647697441.html https://www.ecowatch.com/microplastics-car-tires-james-dyson...
- traceroute66 5y ago
  > The Tyre Collective designed a simple device that collects microplastics as they fly off a car tire That's hilarious. I'd be willing to place a bet there are 101 reasons why that sort of contraption will never be seen on the roads. Its one of those things that looks great on a designer's CAD, and perhaps "works" in a carefully controlled lab simulation. Regrettably its quite obvious its not going to work once you throw good old real life at it.
  - kqr 5y ago
    Even if it does, it's only the second of a very, very long list of problems caused by the car default. In an old, run-down, rat- and cockroach-infested, water-damaged ramshackle house you can't just flush the toilet and then go, "There! Sparkling clean!"
- kqr 5y ago
  In my experience, when you have a large systematic problem, the economic/viable/working/good solution is rarely to zoom in on a particular (pun not intended) problem and solve that, hoping it'll be the last of the problems caused by the broken system. If the system is broken, the only economically sensible way to fix the problems is to change the system. Fundamentally. (In this case, the "broken system" refers to the idea that when we go to work, we have to bring two resting chairs, a couch, and a large coffer. And all of society should be shaped around this daily furniture transportation. Tire dirt is just the second of a very long list of problems caused by this idea.)
  - lamontcg 5y ago
    > when we go to work This is the problem for most of us right here.
project2501a 5y ago
isn't infrastructure an investment, not a cost, tho?
ginko 5y ago
>Long term(as in multiple decades) we might want to switch maglev railways, as there is no friction to stir particles in the air from that. Is there a major environmental/health problem with particulate from regular steel-on-steel railways? I would guess the iron particles don't travel very far due to their density and will mostly turn to harmless iron oxide.
- mschuster91 5y ago
  > Is there a major environmental/health problem with particulate from regular steel-on-steel railways? Yes, as only extremely modern passenger trains have regenerative or resistive electrical brakes and even they need to do the last few bits of the braking process with the old friction brakes since electrical braking doesn't need at low speed. Old trains, especially freight, still runs entirely on friction brakes - either metal or the new "silent brakes" that are a plastics composite. Additionally, you have environmental concerns from oil and lube, which is why you should never fucking ever re-use torn out wooden railway sleepers. They are drenched in immensely toxic anti-rotting agents to begin with, and seep up all the oil and other contaminants (e.g. feces from bypassing old trains without closed-loop toilets).
  - bloak 5y ago
    I wouldn't necessarily carve salad servers out of old railway sleepers but I don't see what problems they'd cause if used for the edge of a flower bed. Remnants of human faeces that have been in the sun and the rain for a year seem a lot less frightening that the fresh cat and pigeon poo you'll find in almost any urban garden.
    - mschuster91 5y ago
      > I wouldn't necessarily carve salad servers out of old railway sleepers but I don't see what problems they'd cause if used for the edge of a flower bed. The anti-rot agents (and, in case your local railway does pesticide spraying to reduce weeds, these too) will leech out into your flower bed and kill it off.
  - 5y ago

DoingIsLearning 5y ago

> I guess switching to EVs isn't really enough For completeness EV apply regenerative braking for a large proportion of use, which is for all practical purposes particle free. Obviously tire wear still applies but brake pad wear is largely reduced So with EV you are getting rid of ICE particulates, CO2, CO, and NO2 (particularly on Diesel engines) and also drastically reducing brake particulate from brake pad wear. And to be fair my intuition is that the health impacts of CO and NO2 is likely far more harmful then tire and brake pad particulates. Having said all of that we would still be better off just having everyone using electric buses or trains within Metro areas at least.

dcolkitt 5y ago
My understanding is that most particulate emission isn’t from brake pads, but from asphalt on the road. Regen braking should only have a de minims impact.

RobertoG 5y ago

>>"Yeah a lot of particles come from the road/tyres," It seems some people is working on that too: "The Tyre Collective designed a simple device that collects microplastics as they fly off a car tire. As the group of designers explains it, their device helps on the path toward zero emissions by using electrostatic and airflow around the tire to capture the microplastics and other small particles that are shed over the lifetime of a tire." https://www.ecowatch.com/microplastics-car-tires-james-dyson-award--2647697441.html https://www.ecowatch.com/microplastics-car-tires-james-dyson...

traceroute66 5y ago
> The Tyre Collective designed a simple device that collects microplastics as they fly off a car tire That's hilarious. I'd be willing to place a bet there are 101 reasons why that sort of contraption will never be seen on the roads. Its one of those things that looks great on a designer's CAD, and perhaps "works" in a carefully controlled lab simulation. Regrettably its quite obvious its not going to work once you throw good old real life at it.
- kqr 5y ago
  Even if it does, it's only the second of a very, very long list of problems caused by the car default. In an old, run-down, rat- and cockroach-infested, water-damaged ramshackle house you can't just flush the toilet and then go, "There! Sparkling clean!"
kqr 5y ago
In my experience, when you have a large systematic problem, the economic/viable/working/good solution is rarely to zoom in on a particular (pun not intended) problem and solve that, hoping it'll be the last of the problems caused by the broken system. If the system is broken, the only economically sensible way to fix the problems is to change the system. Fundamentally. (In this case, the "broken system" refers to the idea that when we go to work, we have to bring two resting chairs, a couch, and a large coffer. And all of society should be shaped around this daily furniture transportation. Tire dirt is just the second of a very long list of problems caused by this idea.)
- lamontcg 5y ago
  > when we go to work This is the problem for most of us right here.

project2501a 5y ago

isn't infrastructure an investment, not a cost, tho?

ginko 5y ago

>Long term(as in multiple decades) we might want to switch maglev railways, as there is no friction to stir particles in the air from that. Is there a major environmental/health problem with particulate from regular steel-on-steel railways? I would guess the iron particles don't travel very far due to their density and will mostly turn to harmless iron oxide.

mschuster91 5y ago
> Is there a major environmental/health problem with particulate from regular steel-on-steel railways? Yes, as only extremely modern passenger trains have regenerative or resistive electrical brakes and even they need to do the last few bits of the braking process with the old friction brakes since electrical braking doesn't need at low speed. Old trains, especially freight, still runs entirely on friction brakes - either metal or the new "silent brakes" that are a plastics composite. Additionally, you have environmental concerns from oil and lube, which is why you should never fucking ever re-use torn out wooden railway sleepers. They are drenched in immensely toxic anti-rotting agents to begin with, and seep up all the oil and other contaminants (e.g. feces from bypassing old trains without closed-loop toilets).
- bloak 5y ago
  I wouldn't necessarily carve salad servers out of old railway sleepers but I don't see what problems they'd cause if used for the edge of a flower bed. Remnants of human faeces that have been in the sun and the rain for a year seem a lot less frightening that the fresh cat and pigeon poo you'll find in almost any urban garden.
  - mschuster91 5y ago
    > I wouldn't necessarily carve salad servers out of old railway sleepers but I don't see what problems they'd cause if used for the edge of a flower bed. The anti-rot agents (and, in case your local railway does pesticide spraying to reduce weeds, these too) will leech out into your flower bed and kill it off.
- 5y ago