4 ms·

The SMTP way of checking if an email exists is on the wrong side of CANSPAM, beginning the sending process to check an address is specifically addressed. And th

The SMTP way of checking if an email exists is on the wrong side of CANSPAM, beginning the sending process to check an address is specifically addressed. And this assumes you didn't systematically "guess" the address.

aussieguy1234 5y ago
Interesting. So if they are doing this are they violating CANSPAM? EDIT: Looks like they are indeed doing the SMTP method: https://github.com/reacherhq/check-if-email-exists/blob/a052c30e134ff74060fabacac5f63ecc1df831a4/core/src/smtp/mod.rs#L193-L328 https://github.com/reacherhq/check-if-email-exists/blob/a052... I also found a similar, much bigger service here that appears to have been around for a while: https://emailverification.whoisxmlapi.com/api https://emailverification.whoisxmlapi.com/api
- smileysteve 5y ago
  It speaks volumes about the marketing industry and how readily ethics and compliance are accepted even by companies that theoretically face consequences (though CanSpam seems to be lacking in enforcement here). There are products that definitely make it past the seed round and sometimes even as public companies before enforcement notice that their entire product runs afoul the law.
jefftk 5y ago
Where do you see this in the law? I just skimmed through it, and I'm not seeing where it's addressed?
- smileysteve 5y ago
  Search for "initiate", "headers", "open mail relays"; In addition to the law the FCC has additional legal guidance available.
  - iudqnolq 5y ago
    If you do this search you'll see that the text of the act doesn't support what smileysteve says. See my other comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27713089 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27713089
iudqnolq 5y ago
CAN-SPAM regulates "sending electronic mail messages". Connecting to an SMTP server to ask it if an address exists doesn't sound like that to me, but IANAL.
- tryauuum 5y ago
  majority of mail servers do not support VRFY command, that is why the generic method of checking mail box is trying to send message (via MAIL FROM + RCPT TO) and breaking the sending halfway through
  - iudqnolq 5y ago
    Okay, but that still sounds to me like taking an overly technical view. I doubt the courts will consider it sending an email if an email isn't received.
    - smileysteve 5y ago
      The law defines the word "initiate".
- smileysteve 5y ago
  The act uses defines the word "initiate" and the SMTP only allows "asking if an address exists" via initiating a send (and then dropping the connection before a message is sent).
  - iudqnolq 5y ago
    The act does define the word initiate, but it defines it to mean what the person who originally sends a message does so they can exempt relays. It's not originating or transmitting a message if you break off the connection before a message is fully transmitted. > The term "initiate", when used with respect to a commercial electronic mail message, means to originate or transmit such message or to procure the origination or transmission of such message, but shall not include actionsthat constitute routine conveyance of such message. I also don't think (but with less certainty) that what isn't fully sent counts as a message, as the primary purpose is verifying if the address exists. Message is defined as > any electronic mail message the primary purpose of which is the commercial advertisement or pro-motion of a commercial product or service
nightpool 5y ago
Can you point out where in CAN-SPAM checking an address is specifically addressed? I haven't heard of this and a quick perusal of CAN-SPAM doesn't turn this up anywhere

aussieguy1234 5y ago

Interesting. So if they are doing this are they violating CANSPAM? EDIT: Looks like they are indeed doing the SMTP method: https://github.com/reacherhq/check-if-email-exists/blob/a052c30e134ff74060fabacac5f63ecc1df831a4/core/src/smtp/mod.rs#L193-L328 https://github.com/reacherhq/check-if-email-exists/blob/a052... I also found a similar, much bigger service here that appears to have been around for a while: https://emailverification.whoisxmlapi.com/api https://emailverification.whoisxmlapi.com/api

smileysteve 5y ago
It speaks volumes about the marketing industry and how readily ethics and compliance are accepted even by companies that theoretically face consequences (though CanSpam seems to be lacking in enforcement here). There are products that definitely make it past the seed round and sometimes even as public companies before enforcement notice that their entire product runs afoul the law.

jefftk 5y ago

Where do you see this in the law? I just skimmed through it, and I'm not seeing where it's addressed?

smileysteve 5y ago
Search for "initiate", "headers", "open mail relays"; In addition to the law the FCC has additional legal guidance available.
- iudqnolq 5y ago
  If you do this search you'll see that the text of the act doesn't support what smileysteve says. See my other comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27713089 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27713089

iudqnolq 5y ago

CAN-SPAM regulates "sending electronic mail messages". Connecting to an SMTP server to ask it if an address exists doesn't sound like that to me, but IANAL.

tryauuum 5y ago
majority of mail servers do not support VRFY command, that is why the generic method of checking mail box is trying to send message (via MAIL FROM + RCPT TO) and breaking the sending halfway through
- iudqnolq 5y ago
  Okay, but that still sounds to me like taking an overly technical view. I doubt the courts will consider it sending an email if an email isn't received.
  - smileysteve 5y ago
    The law defines the word "initiate".
smileysteve 5y ago
The act uses defines the word "initiate" and the SMTP only allows "asking if an address exists" via initiating a send (and then dropping the connection before a message is sent).
- iudqnolq 5y ago
  The act does define the word initiate, but it defines it to mean what the person who originally sends a message does so they can exempt relays. It's not originating or transmitting a message if you break off the connection before a message is fully transmitted. > The term "initiate", when used with respect to a commercial electronic mail message, means to originate or transmit such message or to procure the origination or transmission of such message, but shall not include actionsthat constitute routine conveyance of such message. I also don't think (but with less certainty) that what isn't fully sent counts as a message, as the primary purpose is verifying if the address exists. Message is defined as > any electronic mail message the primary purpose of which is the commercial advertisement or pro-motion of a commercial product or service

nightpool 5y ago

Can you point out where in CAN-SPAM checking an address is specifically addressed? I haven't heard of this and a quick perusal of CAN-SPAM doesn't turn this up anywhere