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This appears to be "video streaming" style transmitters, not an ADS-B out sort of location transmitter or anything. And it seems that HobbyKing just... hoped n

by Syonyk 5y ago

This appears to be "video streaming" style transmitters, not an ADS-B out sort of location transmitter or anything. And it seems that HobbyKing just... hoped nothing would happen. > As spelled out in ARRL’s 2017 complaint, the ARRL Laboratory had documented that the operating frequencies of these drone TV transmitters near the 1.3 GHz amateur band were dip-switch selectable for frequencies internationally assigned for use by Aeronautical Navigation, GPS, GLONASS L1, ATC Mode “S,” as well as to both the interrogation and reply frequencies used for Air Traffic Control Air-Route Surveillance “transponder” radar systems. “Transmissions from these drone TV transmitters would have caused harmful interference to these essential Navigation and ATC Radar systems, presenting a real and dangerous threat to the safety of flight,” Carlson said. That's impressively ballsy. I'm glad the FCC smacked them down pretty hard. It's not like global frequency allocations aren't well known.

deleted 5y ago
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trafalgarcircle 5y ago
Linux allows individuals to override tx frequencies and power on many devices, but at least that’s done in software. I could understand if the dips were for setting bits on a frequency divider and could allow selecting any frequency, but having them directly correlate to reserved frequencies is beyond the pale.
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  >but having them directly correlate to reserved frequencies is beyond the pale. The whole point of this cheapo hardware is that it can be used for whatever just by setting switches and therefore achieves massive economies of scale. They sell the same hardware to the drone makers and the radio makers and so on. IIRC these switches were not user accessible. The manufacturer set them in the right position.
  - tonyarkles 5y ago
    Possibly, although I’ve definitely got some old Hobbyking video kit where the DIP switches are totally user accessible and can definitely go into bands they aught not. Likely not the same kit (it’s about 10 years old now) but… there’s very likely still super sketchy stuff available there.
  - duskwuff 5y ago
    > IIRC these switches were not user accessible. They were definitely user accessible in at least some of the products. Here are a couple of the devices named in the FCC complaint which obviously had exposed DIP switches: https://hobbyking.com/en_us/aomway-700tvl-cmos-hd-camera-ntsc-version-plus-5-8g-200mw-transmitter.html https://hobbyking.com/en_us/aomway-700tvl-cmos-hd-camera-nts... https://hobbyking.com/en_us/1-2ghz-mg-500mw-8ch-a-v-wireless-transmitter-module.html https://hobbyking.com/en_us/1-2ghz-mg-500mw-8ch-a-v-wireless... https://hobbyking.com/en_us/x40-l-25mw-tx-cnc-alloy-cas.html https://hobbyking.com/en_us/x40-l-25mw-tx-cnc-alloy-cas.html There were undoubtedly a number of others which could be switched between frequencies in other ways, like with a pushbutton.
    - R0b0t1 5y ago
      I still don't feel great about this. It should be up to the end user to not break the law.
      - homero 5y ago
        Then people would buy phone jammers if they could easily be sold
        R0b0t1 5y ago
        Kits are already easy to buy. People don't bother buying the kits because if you use the jammer generally you are found. Occasionally pops up in the news.
        5y ago
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
jimmaswell 5y ago
All that for a dip switch that isn't normally accessible?
briandear 5y ago
Wow that could have affected WAAS GPS approaches for aircraft which is rather critical stuff. (WAAS approaches allow for airplanes to descend to much lower altitudes without ground visibility. Basically the GPS equivalent of the Instrument Landing System.) And Mode S has serious implications for TCAS systems (preventing air to air collisions.) Extremely bad to be messing with those frequencies. Potentially catastrophic.
- midev 5y ago
  > Extremely bad to be messing with those frequencies. Potentially catastrophic. If someone with a hobby electronics kit can cause that much damage, the system needs to change. Hobby projects like this can help expose the serious flaws in aircraft control, making us all safer. Security by obscurity is no security at all. Security by hoping people don't do bad things is even worse.
  - behringer 5y ago
    Youre expected not to board a plane with a bomb and youre expected to not operate equipment on wrong frequencies that interfere with others. Just because you can do something does not mean its ok to do.
    - can16358p 5y ago
      I think what the comment is about is that the system should be built safer with less security with obscurity but more actual measures. You can (partially) scan people getting onto the plane for bombs etc but it's practically very hard to pinpoint a jamming RF transmitter possibly from kilometers away from ground. Security shouldn't rely on those frequencies being clear.
    - midev 5y ago
      > Youre expected not to board a plane with a bomb And we have a lot of controls around this! Congrats! You've discovered airline security! > expected to not operate equipment on wrong frequencies that interfere with others If I can build a small electronic device, that goes through no controls, and can cause catastrophic damage, that is a HUGE problem. > Just because you can do something does not mean its ok to do. lol, you missed the point. If it's that easy to do something, the system needs to change.
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
> As spelled out in ARRL’s 2017 complaint, the ARRL Laboratory had documented that the operating frequencies of these drone TV transmitters near the 1.3 GHz amateur band were dip-switch selectable They weren't even pretending to hide it. The product listings showed which channels were selectable and it looks like the dip switches were easily accessible: https://hobbyking.com/en_us/1-2ghz-mg-500mw-8ch-a-v-wireless-transmitter-module.html https://hobbyking.com/en_us/1-2ghz-mg-500mw-8ch-a-v-wireless...
quercusa 5y ago
I suspect this bit didn't endear them to the FCC either: HobbyKing had told the FCC that it had no notice of the Commission’s authorization requirements; that the Fifth Amendment relieved HobbyKing of its duty to respond; that the forfeiture amount was inappropriate because its parent company, Indubitably, Inc., lacked the ability to pay to the Forfeiture Order; and that the Commission was time-barred from taking action against ABC Fulfillment Services LLC because it was not part of HobbyKing’s business.
- pydry 5y ago
  Ouch. Either they had a terrible lawyer or demanded the lawyer they did have make the impossible happen.
- MertsA 5y ago
  It's like I'm reading "Sovereign Citizen: Corporate Edition". Why did someone honestly think there was even the slightest chance of that response helping their situation? "We weren't importing, we were travelling!"

by Syonyk 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

trafalgarcircle 5y ago

Linux allows individuals to override tx frequencies and power on many devices, but at least that’s done in software. I could understand if the dips were for setting bits on a frequency divider and could allow selecting any frequency, but having them directly correlate to reserved frequencies is beyond the pale.

throwaway0a5e 5y ago
>but having them directly correlate to reserved frequencies is beyond the pale. The whole point of this cheapo hardware is that it can be used for whatever just by setting switches and therefore achieves massive economies of scale. They sell the same hardware to the drone makers and the radio makers and so on. IIRC these switches were not user accessible. The manufacturer set them in the right position.
- tonyarkles 5y ago
  Possibly, although I’ve definitely got some old Hobbyking video kit where the DIP switches are totally user accessible and can definitely go into bands they aught not. Likely not the same kit (it’s about 10 years old now) but… there’s very likely still super sketchy stuff available there.
- duskwuff 5y ago
  > IIRC these switches were not user accessible. They were definitely user accessible in at least some of the products. Here are a couple of the devices named in the FCC complaint which obviously had exposed DIP switches: https://hobbyking.com/en_us/aomway-700tvl-cmos-hd-camera-ntsc-version-plus-5-8g-200mw-transmitter.html https://hobbyking.com/en_us/aomway-700tvl-cmos-hd-camera-nts... https://hobbyking.com/en_us/1-2ghz-mg-500mw-8ch-a-v-wireless-transmitter-module.html https://hobbyking.com/en_us/1-2ghz-mg-500mw-8ch-a-v-wireless... https://hobbyking.com/en_us/x40-l-25mw-tx-cnc-alloy-cas.html https://hobbyking.com/en_us/x40-l-25mw-tx-cnc-alloy-cas.html There were undoubtedly a number of others which could be switched between frequencies in other ways, like with a pushbutton.
  - R0b0t1 5y ago
    I still don't feel great about this. It should be up to the end user to not break the law.
    - homero 5y ago
      Then people would buy phone jammers if they could easily be sold
      - R0b0t1 5y ago
        Kits are already easy to buy. People don't bother buying the kits because if you use the jammer generally you are found. Occasionally pops up in the news.
        5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

jimmaswell 5y ago

All that for a dip switch that isn't normally accessible?

briandear 5y ago

Wow that could have affected WAAS GPS approaches for aircraft which is rather critical stuff. (WAAS approaches allow for airplanes to descend to much lower altitudes without ground visibility. Basically the GPS equivalent of the Instrument Landing System.) And Mode S has serious implications for TCAS systems (preventing air to air collisions.) Extremely bad to be messing with those frequencies. Potentially catastrophic.

midev 5y ago
> Extremely bad to be messing with those frequencies. Potentially catastrophic. If someone with a hobby electronics kit can cause that much damage, the system needs to change. Hobby projects like this can help expose the serious flaws in aircraft control, making us all safer. Security by obscurity is no security at all. Security by hoping people don't do bad things is even worse.
- behringer 5y ago
  Youre expected not to board a plane with a bomb and youre expected to not operate equipment on wrong frequencies that interfere with others. Just because you can do something does not mean its ok to do.
  - can16358p 5y ago
    I think what the comment is about is that the system should be built safer with less security with obscurity but more actual measures. You can (partially) scan people getting onto the plane for bombs etc but it's practically very hard to pinpoint a jamming RF transmitter possibly from kilometers away from ground. Security shouldn't rely on those frequencies being clear.
  - midev 5y ago
    > Youre expected not to board a plane with a bomb And we have a lot of controls around this! Congrats! You've discovered airline security! > expected to not operate equipment on wrong frequencies that interfere with others If I can build a small electronic device, that goes through no controls, and can cause catastrophic damage, that is a HUGE problem. > Just because you can do something does not mean its ok to do. lol, you missed the point. If it's that easy to do something, the system needs to change.

PragmaticPulp 5y ago

> As spelled out in ARRL’s 2017 complaint, the ARRL Laboratory had documented that the operating frequencies of these drone TV transmitters near the 1.3 GHz amateur band were dip-switch selectable They weren't even pretending to hide it. The product listings showed which channels were selectable and it looks like the dip switches were easily accessible: https://hobbyking.com/en_us/1-2ghz-mg-500mw-8ch-a-v-wireless-transmitter-module.html https://hobbyking.com/en_us/1-2ghz-mg-500mw-8ch-a-v-wireless...

quercusa 5y ago

I suspect this bit didn't endear them to the FCC either: HobbyKing had told the FCC that it had no notice of the Commission’s authorization requirements; that the Fifth Amendment relieved HobbyKing of its duty to respond; that the forfeiture amount was inappropriate because its parent company, Indubitably, Inc., lacked the ability to pay to the Forfeiture Order; and that the Commission was time-barred from taking action against ABC Fulfillment Services LLC because it was not part of HobbyKing’s business.

pydry 5y ago
Ouch. Either they had a terrible lawyer or demanded the lawyer they did have make the impossible happen.
MertsA 5y ago
It's like I'm reading "Sovereign Citizen: Corporate Edition". Why did someone honestly think there was even the slightest chance of that response helping their situation? "We weren't importing, we were travelling!"