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> I've started to appreciate the religious outlook more that has a mature attitude to suffering rather than this honestly pretty childish avoidance of negative

> I've started to appreciate the religious outlook more that has a mature attitude to suffering rather than this honestly pretty childish avoidance of negative emotions. People look at me like I'm nuts when I tell them (honestly) "I don't believe in happiness". I mean that honestly. I believe in emotions like contentedness, elation, joy, jubilation, etc. Things that many consider 'happy'. But this notion of happiness as a permanent state of being. I've never experienced it or seen it. It does not exist. Those pursuing it have some religious attachment to it. Moreover, even if I did believe in it, I am unconvinced of its utility or whether it's a worthy goal to pursue. Seems completely wasteful to me.

fragmede 5y ago
If your definition of happy includes it being a permanent state of being, no wonder you can't find it. That's not part of the definition for happiness. If I said I don't believe in computers, but my definition of computers is "sentient beings from another planet living on Earth", people would look at me like I'm nuts, for multiple reasons.
- pessimizer 5y ago
  Ah, the definition was wrong. You failed to correct us, though.
- iammisc 5y ago
  It's not that I can't find it. It's that I have no interest in pursuing it. I am extremely content and satisfied with my life. See no point in chasing things I don't need. This is the problem. I tell people I'm not interested in being happy, and they take that to mean my life sucks (for lack of a better term). Nothing is further from the truth. Unlike my happiness oriented friends, I am extremely content. I have a beautiful wife and lovely children. My family lives close by. I have close friends. I want for nothing. People tell me I smile a lot. But I have no feeling I'd describe as happy. I'm not sad. I'm just content. I see no point in seeking the thrill of happiness, just like I see no point seeking the thrill of skydiving. I intellectually see how such fleeting experiences could be nice, but I don't want or need them
  - fragmede 5y ago
    My point was that your definition of happy seems to be different from mine. From your description above you sound quite happy. Sure, you’re not living in a permanent state of ecstasy, but who is? What is your definition of content, and why is happy not the same thing as being content?
loves_mangoes 5y ago
I just feel like I'm morally obligated to chime in — you can't be told you don't exist and not feel a little weird about it =) >this notion of happiness as a permanent state of being. I've never experienced it or seen it Alright, so maybe your idea of what others mean by happiness is not what I'd expect. I don't think most people would define happiness as a permanent state of being. There's a risk we'd be talking past each other a bit, so I'm going to try to define what I mean by happiness, and why I'm, so far, pretty sure that I exist! As far as I'm concerned, "being happy" is about how your baseline level of emotion is. When nothing in particular is happening, let's say if you lied down for a minute, are you stressed, depressed, worried, miserable, feeling like you are wasting time idling and really should be doing something else? Unless most of your day is an emotional rollercoaster, to me a large part of the time is "baseline" like this. If nothing is acting on you, then your emotions come from within. And I'd like to hope most people in a stable situation don't experience any of the above negative emotions for no reason, they're not actively suffering when nothing is being done to them. But that's not what happiness is, it's just neutrality. And happiness isn't the only emotion you're allowed to feel either (that would be pretty unhealthy!). It's not a constant, or a permanent state. It doesn't mean you can't have a bad day, or that you take bad things with a smile. It means you take neutral things with a smile! It means that when things are at baseline, you don't need to look for a reason to feel good, and redeem the fact that everything is going great and you have nothing to worry about! You don't need a reason to smile. If what's puzzling you is the 'religious attachment' to pursing happiness, well, I don't get it either. But those articles that sell happiness methods and simple steps and lifestyle changes are clearly not meant for me. I don't feel like happiness is something you chase, or some out of reach goal that requires years of devoted training. Somehow this seems controversial enough that I'm not comfortable admitting to happiness on my main account's post history! But I hope you can believe that I'm being sincere, and that I wish you the best. Much love <3
- iammisc 5y ago
  > As far as I'm concerned, "being happy" is about how your baseline level of emotion is. When nothing in particular is happening, let's say if you lied down for a minute, are you stressed, depressed, worried, miserable, feeling like you are wasting time idling and really should be doing something else? Nope. I love doing nothing. Have no care in the world. Don't feel stressed. Don't feel miserable. I don't feel anything. Should I think about my life, I feel content. But contentedness is different from happiness, because I am content even when I am quite obviously suffering or in pain. For example, I recently sprained my back quite hard. Was I uncontented? Not at all. Even while in pain, I was perfectly fine. > Alright, so maybe your idea of what others mean by happiness is not what I'd expect. I don't think most people would define happiness as a permanent state of being. But this is the very definition of happiness I believe is pushed on us by the pschology-industrial complex, and is the one I reject. Certainly, the fleeting feeling of 'happiness' exists. I just don't believe the psychobabble version of happiness exists. Moreover, I think it would be extremely depressing if it did. > . It doesn't mean you can't have a bad day, or that you take bad things with a smile. It means you take neutral things with a smile! I guess I find this strange, because even when I have a bad day, I'm typically extremely optimistic. As I've said elsewhere, I'm an eternal optimist. > I don't feel like happiness is something you chase, or some out of reach goal that requires years of devoted training. I think you're arguing against a strawman. You call happiness, what I call neutrality or maybe contentedness. This article is not about that. It's about something else.
mypalmike 5y ago
As others have said, you'll find it hard to find a serious definition of happiness that involves permanence. That said, different people do tend to have different general attitudes toward life, positive or negative. I spent quite a few years in the negative camp, and there is far less utility in that than there is having a positive outlook. Much easier said than done, of course.
- lanstin 5y ago
  Ones own hopefulness or despair alters the scope of possible solutions. To the extent one can influence ones own attitude, it is useful to be strategic about it. Of course, we need a few curmudgeon's around to keep the group on its toes. But the happy clappy people are so inspiring.
- iammisc 5y ago
  I have an extremely positive outlook. I'm an eternal optimist. I'm just not happy. I don't believe in happiness. I'm an optimist because the alternative is pointless. I don'h associate sadness with despair or hapiness with hope. In my experience, some of the 'happiest' people are the most desperate. When you're attached to happiness, the thought of becoming sad makes you desperate. That's why happiness should be ignored as an end. It's fleeting and an unnecessary material attachment.
armchairhacker 5y ago
To me happiness = contentness. Like after a run, when I'm just looking at a beautiful landscape or in the car, and I just feel "ok". But if I could feel that kind of ok as a permanent state of being it would probably be enough. That feeling can last at least an hour. Unfortunately it eventually fades and I get bored and agitated. If I could achieve that permanently it would be amazing, but in my experience meditation or yoga only increase agitation, the only thing which causes it is running or a hot shower. There's also ecstacy and mania, like when playing an intense video game, eating a delicious food, or winning a jackpot. That feeling fades almost instantly, and permanently feeling that would be kind of overwhelming.
- sunshineforever 5y ago
  I'm not trying to ne critical but I think you should maybe try a different approach to yoga if it increases your agitation. Some of the 'beginner' positions are actually pretty hard... Maybe try something easier and forget the parts that bring agitation for now.
tomc1985 5y ago
I have always seen happiness as like sugar... sweet, and fine in small quantities but unhealthy if it becomes a dominant component in one's diet. Similarly, things that induce happiness (or other feelings) for the sake of it and nothing else are disgusting. How much of the world has been made worse because happiness was shoved down someone's throat? Do we really realize just how much this emotion and its tells (a smile, good mood, etc) are used to deceive us? If you want to feel something, earn it.
- iammisc 5y ago
  > If you want to feel something, earn it. Indeed, and the feeling of earning something is termed 'achievement'.
meristohm 5y ago
Happiness is not a permanent state, because it decays like other emotional waves. Feels unreasonable and perhaps harmful to pursue happiness. I aim for equanimity. Looking at the stars feels awesome and it also is just a thing I do sometimes to let some time pass and help myself return to a peaceful center-feeling.

fragmede 5y ago

If your definition of happy includes it being a permanent state of being, no wonder you can't find it. That's not part of the definition for happiness. If I said I don't believe in computers, but my definition of computers is "sentient beings from another planet living on Earth", people would look at me like I'm nuts, for multiple reasons.

pessimizer 5y ago
Ah, the definition was wrong. You failed to correct us, though.
iammisc 5y ago
It's not that I can't find it. It's that I have no interest in pursuing it. I am extremely content and satisfied with my life. See no point in chasing things I don't need. This is the problem. I tell people I'm not interested in being happy, and they take that to mean my life sucks (for lack of a better term). Nothing is further from the truth. Unlike my happiness oriented friends, I am extremely content. I have a beautiful wife and lovely children. My family lives close by. I have close friends. I want for nothing. People tell me I smile a lot. But I have no feeling I'd describe as happy. I'm not sad. I'm just content. I see no point in seeking the thrill of happiness, just like I see no point seeking the thrill of skydiving. I intellectually see how such fleeting experiences could be nice, but I don't want or need them
- fragmede 5y ago
  My point was that your definition of happy seems to be different from mine. From your description above you sound quite happy. Sure, you’re not living in a permanent state of ecstasy, but who is? What is your definition of content, and why is happy not the same thing as being content?

loves_mangoes 5y ago

I just feel like I'm morally obligated to chime in — you can't be told you don't exist and not feel a little weird about it =) >this notion of happiness as a permanent state of being. I've never experienced it or seen it Alright, so maybe your idea of what others mean by happiness is not what I'd expect. I don't think most people would define happiness as a permanent state of being. There's a risk we'd be talking past each other a bit, so I'm going to try to define what I mean by happiness, and why I'm, so far, pretty sure that I exist! As far as I'm concerned, "being happy" is about how your baseline level of emotion is. When nothing in particular is happening, let's say if you lied down for a minute, are you stressed, depressed, worried, miserable, feeling like you are wasting time idling and really should be doing something else? Unless most of your day is an emotional rollercoaster, to me a large part of the time is "baseline" like this. If nothing is acting on you, then your emotions come from within. And I'd like to hope most people in a stable situation don't experience any of the above negative emotions for no reason, they're not actively suffering when nothing is being done to them. But that's not what happiness is, it's just neutrality. And happiness isn't the only emotion you're allowed to feel either (that would be pretty unhealthy!). It's not a constant, or a permanent state. It doesn't mean you can't have a bad day, or that you take bad things with a smile. It means you take neutral things with a smile! It means that when things are at baseline, you don't need to look for a reason to feel good, and redeem the fact that everything is going great and you have nothing to worry about! You don't need a reason to smile. If what's puzzling you is the 'religious attachment' to pursing happiness, well, I don't get it either. But those articles that sell happiness methods and simple steps and lifestyle changes are clearly not meant for me. I don't feel like happiness is something you chase, or some out of reach goal that requires years of devoted training. Somehow this seems controversial enough that I'm not comfortable admitting to happiness on my main account's post history! But I hope you can believe that I'm being sincere, and that I wish you the best. Much love <3

iammisc 5y ago
> As far as I'm concerned, "being happy" is about how your baseline level of emotion is. When nothing in particular is happening, let's say if you lied down for a minute, are you stressed, depressed, worried, miserable, feeling like you are wasting time idling and really should be doing something else? Nope. I love doing nothing. Have no care in the world. Don't feel stressed. Don't feel miserable. I don't feel anything. Should I think about my life, I feel content. But contentedness is different from happiness, because I am content even when I am quite obviously suffering or in pain. For example, I recently sprained my back quite hard. Was I uncontented? Not at all. Even while in pain, I was perfectly fine. > Alright, so maybe your idea of what others mean by happiness is not what I'd expect. I don't think most people would define happiness as a permanent state of being. But this is the very definition of happiness I believe is pushed on us by the pschology-industrial complex, and is the one I reject. Certainly, the fleeting feeling of 'happiness' exists. I just don't believe the psychobabble version of happiness exists. Moreover, I think it would be extremely depressing if it did. > . It doesn't mean you can't have a bad day, or that you take bad things with a smile. It means you take neutral things with a smile! I guess I find this strange, because even when I have a bad day, I'm typically extremely optimistic. As I've said elsewhere, I'm an eternal optimist. > I don't feel like happiness is something you chase, or some out of reach goal that requires years of devoted training. I think you're arguing against a strawman. You call happiness, what I call neutrality or maybe contentedness. This article is not about that. It's about something else.

mypalmike 5y ago

As others have said, you'll find it hard to find a serious definition of happiness that involves permanence. That said, different people do tend to have different general attitudes toward life, positive or negative. I spent quite a few years in the negative camp, and there is far less utility in that than there is having a positive outlook. Much easier said than done, of course.

lanstin 5y ago
Ones own hopefulness or despair alters the scope of possible solutions. To the extent one can influence ones own attitude, it is useful to be strategic about it. Of course, we need a few curmudgeon's around to keep the group on its toes. But the happy clappy people are so inspiring.
iammisc 5y ago
I have an extremely positive outlook. I'm an eternal optimist. I'm just not happy. I don't believe in happiness. I'm an optimist because the alternative is pointless. I don'h associate sadness with despair or hapiness with hope. In my experience, some of the 'happiest' people are the most desperate. When you're attached to happiness, the thought of becoming sad makes you desperate. That's why happiness should be ignored as an end. It's fleeting and an unnecessary material attachment.

armchairhacker 5y ago

To me happiness = contentness. Like after a run, when I'm just looking at a beautiful landscape or in the car, and I just feel "ok". But if I could feel that kind of ok as a permanent state of being it would probably be enough. That feeling can last at least an hour. Unfortunately it eventually fades and I get bored and agitated. If I could achieve that permanently it would be amazing, but in my experience meditation or yoga only increase agitation, the only thing which causes it is running or a hot shower. There's also ecstacy and mania, like when playing an intense video game, eating a delicious food, or winning a jackpot. That feeling fades almost instantly, and permanently feeling that would be kind of overwhelming.

sunshineforever 5y ago
I'm not trying to ne critical but I think you should maybe try a different approach to yoga if it increases your agitation. Some of the 'beginner' positions are actually pretty hard... Maybe try something easier and forget the parts that bring agitation for now.

tomc1985 5y ago

I have always seen happiness as like sugar... sweet, and fine in small quantities but unhealthy if it becomes a dominant component in one's diet. Similarly, things that induce happiness (or other feelings) for the sake of it and nothing else are disgusting. How much of the world has been made worse because happiness was shoved down someone's throat? Do we really realize just how much this emotion and its tells (a smile, good mood, etc) are used to deceive us? If you want to feel something, earn it.

iammisc 5y ago
> If you want to feel something, earn it. Indeed, and the feeling of earning something is termed 'achievement'.

meristohm 5y ago

Happiness is not a permanent state, because it decays like other emotional waves. Feels unreasonable and perhaps harmful to pursue happiness. I aim for equanimity. Looking at the stars feels awesome and it also is just a thing I do sometimes to let some time pass and help myself return to a peaceful center-feeling.