4 ms·

>All those downsides you mention are not automatic consequences of having a union. No, but don't try to bullshit us that any new union (and it's negotiated con

>All those downsides you mention are not automatic consequences of having a union. No, but don't try to bullshit us that any new union (and it's negotiated contract) isn't going to end up looking a lot like the unions around it. Doubly so when the employees in question are part of a national union. >Look at union jobs in Europe for a better example of how things can work out. Cool. And just as soon as you do the work to make the collective bargaining status quo in the US the same as it is in Europe, we can continue this conversation. Until then, I don't care about this tangent. >Ask yourself this: Why would you voluntarily forgo leverage to be gained on your employer? Because *I* am not gaining leverage. A bureaucracy that represents me as part of an amalgamation gains leverage. Before I toss my hat in, I need to hear a whole lot more about what that bureaucracy is planning to be, and how it's going to design itself. I don't need to be pitched the possibility this instance could be better than the stereotype. Why not show me the plan on how we're going to make sure this one is a good one? Let's set goals. Up front and on screen. Then we can decide on the implementation details (such as unionization) needed to get there. When the cart is put before the horse, I don't see how you can tell me with a straight face that the union could ever possibly be anything but exactly the generic stereotypical union that the grandparent poster is afraid of.

goodpoint 5y ago
> to bullshit us that any new union (and it's negotiated contract) isn't going to end up looking a lot like the unions around it Any new organization in human society is going to be the same as previous ones? Does this apply to unions only? Or no progress ever happens in any organization?
- sokoloff 5y ago
  It's true that past performance is no guarantee of future results. Nevertheless, we are well-advised to examine the history and past performance when seeking to estimate future results.
  - Apocryphon 5y ago
    It's funny to hear such talk even as we are all members of an industry that has reinvented everything from taxis to space rocketry, payment systems to currency. Perhaps this isn't the union that will do it, but surely the tech industry can find a way to innovate on unions and labor power. Why everything else and not that?
    - sokoloff 5y ago
      Perhaps we already have disrupted the traditional employer<->employee power dynamic and the re-invention of employment bargaining doesn't look exactly like the old unions? SWEs have more bargaining power than ever right now (at least in the US, which is the market I'm most familiar with) .
      - Apocryphon 5y ago
        SWEs have a lot of bargaining power because at the moment, it is an occupation in hot demand. That's not qualitatively different from any number of highly-sought after professions throughout history. That's not really a fundamental disruption and itself will eventually be disrupted by market forces. What we see is the summer before the fall.
      - goodpoint 5y ago
        > Perhaps we already have disrupted the traditional employer<->employee power dynamic Care to describe what disruption happened and how? Software developers contracts seem pretty similar to any other office worker. The only big change in employment in the last 15 years happened outside of software development: the gig/sharing economy. And it's a huge step backwards.
        sokoloff 5y ago
        Most office workers do not get options or RSUs in their company. Most office workers cannot set a flag on their LinkedIn profile that says "looking for work", get hounded by recruiters, and land another job, with higher pay, a stock grant, and signing bonus, and start the new job next month.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

goodpoint 5y ago

> to bullshit us that any new union (and it's negotiated contract) isn't going to end up looking a lot like the unions around it Any new organization in human society is going to be the same as previous ones? Does this apply to unions only? Or no progress ever happens in any organization?

sokoloff 5y ago
It's true that past performance is no guarantee of future results. Nevertheless, we are well-advised to examine the history and past performance when seeking to estimate future results.
- Apocryphon 5y ago
  It's funny to hear such talk even as we are all members of an industry that has reinvented everything from taxis to space rocketry, payment systems to currency. Perhaps this isn't the union that will do it, but surely the tech industry can find a way to innovate on unions and labor power. Why everything else and not that?
  - sokoloff 5y ago
    Perhaps we already have disrupted the traditional employer<->employee power dynamic and the re-invention of employment bargaining doesn't look exactly like the old unions? SWEs have more bargaining power than ever right now (at least in the US, which is the market I'm most familiar with) .
    - Apocryphon 5y ago
      SWEs have a lot of bargaining power because at the moment, it is an occupation in hot demand. That's not qualitatively different from any number of highly-sought after professions throughout history. That's not really a fundamental disruption and itself will eventually be disrupted by market forces. What we see is the summer before the fall.
    - goodpoint 5y ago
      > Perhaps we already have disrupted the traditional employer<->employee power dynamic Care to describe what disruption happened and how? Software developers contracts seem pretty similar to any other office worker. The only big change in employment in the last 15 years happened outside of software development: the gig/sharing economy. And it's a huge step backwards.
      - sokoloff 5y ago
        Most office workers do not get options or RSUs in their company. Most office workers cannot set a flag on their LinkedIn profile that says "looking for work", get hounded by recruiters, and land another job, with higher pay, a stock grant, and signing bonus, and start the new job next month.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]